Baggage Claim

Greg's story of forgiveness. What if forgiveness is the only way you get your life back?

• Greg and Jess • Season 1 • Episode 31

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Heartbreak doesn’t send a calendar invite. One moment you’re doing everything “right”—serving, parenting, showing up—and the next you’re staring at a truth you never thought would touch your life. Greg opens up about growing up with an abusive, alcoholic father and the vow he made to become a different kind of man, then walks us through the gut-punch of discovering an affair, the sleepless months of bargaining, and the quiet, stubborn decision to let go.

We talk about the hidden drift that can sneak into a marriage and why warning lights are so easy to miss until the dashboard is flashing. Greg shares the vulnerable parts—anger that started to look like his father’s, nights on the porch to avoid rooms that hurt, and the moment in a bar when a clear inner voice asked, “What are you doing?” He explains how forgiveness became less a moral stance and more a survival skill: necessary for co‑parenting, necessary for sanity, and essential for rebuilding trust with someone new. Along the way, we tackle church culture’s messy response to divorce, the unfair simplicity of taking sides, and the practical tools that help you heal without rehearsing pain.

If you’re navigating betrayal, divorce, or the aftermath of a broken promise, this conversation offers unvarnished honesty and usable hope. You’ll hear how to set boundaries, make small daily commitments that rebuild trust, and lay down the backpack of rocks you’ve carried for too long. Listen for Greg’s simple, repeatable practices that turn forgiveness into freedom and help you step into a future that isn’t defined by your past.

If this resonates, hit follow, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that stayed with you—your story might be the lifeline someone else is waiting for.

SPEAKER_03:

Hey guys, what's up? I'm Greg. I hope you guys are ready to unpack and get into some good conversations today.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast, Baggage Claim. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_03:

What's up, everybody? Welcome to Baggage Claim. If this is your first time here, welcome. Thank you for joining us. It is one of those nights, so bear with us. Baggage Claim is just a great night, Greg. It is a great night.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm never not gonna laugh when we clap.

SPEAKER_03:

When we clap to start, Jess laughs every time we're 30 plus episodes in, and she still does it. Yeah. So Baggage Claim is just a place where we talk about community and we talk about uh relationships and marriage and all those fun things. So are we we just I turned it off.

SPEAKER_00:

The air conditioner. There we go.

SPEAKER_03:

We're living in a wind tunnel right now. That's okay. We're just figuring it out as we go. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00:

We're at our house and we're in a what we used to refer to as kind of like a mother-in-law suite that we converted into our podcast studio. Well in this area, there's like a hotel um air conditioner heater unit in the wall. And it's loud.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's so nice when it's on.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it is great.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And we don't have enough money to buy the nice microphones yet to bleed that out. So if somebody wants to send us a donation of$600, we'll buy some.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's going to be okay because the ceiling fan is on too.

SPEAKER_02:

We need some air circulation.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to our home podcast family.

SPEAKER_03:

Grab your drink, pull up to the table of this chaos with us and jump into some fun conversations as we just dive into relationships. We've been talking about forgiveness. Uh Jess did two episodes on uh her story of forgiveness. If you haven't caught those, make sure you listen to part one and part two. Uh part two is just as good as one. It's it's really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00:

I was just about to say not all conversations we have are fun. No.

SPEAKER_03:

No. Those those were, I'm just saying those were good. Last the last week, the one that just released uh on Tuesday um is about just having conversations. It was all around the the idea of all the controversy with uh Charlie Kirk and everything that happened with that. So if you haven't listened to that, check it out. It's it's you know just us chatting about those things. So um but anyway, tonight uh before we jump into a topic, we're just gonna do fun fun kind of a question.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh y'all did so good.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't sing. I have a cough still.

SPEAKER_03:

You practiced it earlier.

SPEAKER_00:

I got to do that.

SPEAKER_03:

Jess has been smoking like a pack of marlborous a day, apparently. Stop.

SPEAKER_00:

So she's No, I'm sick again. Yeah Um I've got my cough drops ready, had my water, there's a lot going on. So if I cough, I'm really sorry. But that's why I didn't join on the question time trio.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So, my do you want to go first for your question, or do you want me to go first? Favorite pasta.

SPEAKER_02:

We talking like pituccini, spaghetti, a lasagna. Like what is it?

SPEAKER_00:

This is actually a point of contention in our family.

SPEAKER_02:

Really? I had no idea. Let's talk. Let's open this up, let's open our baggage.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Open the baggage. Even when the kids were little, me and all four of our kids, we like what we have always called fun pasta, like bow ties or rigotoni.

SPEAKER_03:

They just go in there and they just go freewheel with the pasta. They just grab any pasta.

SPEAKER_00:

You can't just grab any pasta.

SPEAKER_03:

It's the shape of any pasta and they throw it in spaghetti.

SPEAKER_00:

We do. It's just the shapes, the fun quote unquote. Fun pasta makes head. I know. But it's always made us happy. And even now with all the grown-up kids, even our daughter-in-law included, now she wants fun pasta.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, that's like using spaghetti noodles for mac and cheese.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

If you want to do that, do that if that makes you happy. Greg, I know your answer. Go ahead and share.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Spaghetti noodles are for spaghetti. Fettuccini noodles are for fettuccine.

SPEAKER_04:

I know.

SPEAKER_03:

Like noodles have a place, they have a purpose.

SPEAKER_04:

They don't.

SPEAKER_03:

And you use them. It took me a while to where I could get over that. Like it just bothered me for a while.

SPEAKER_00:

Even now, literally, even now, up until last week, I try to, because spaghetti is pretty much a staple in our house weekly. And I try to alternate. I try to alternate. One week we have like normal, boring noodles. And then like the next one. Spaghetti noodles.

SPEAKER_02:

You mean the one that's supposed to come with.

SPEAKER_00:

And then the next time we'll have super fun noodles. And so I try to alternate. So everybody's.

SPEAKER_03:

I was about to ask. I was literally just about to follow up with angel noodles.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a whole thing, too. He wants a big fat spaghetti noodle.

SPEAKER_03:

He needs the noodle substance. No, you mean angel hair pasta. No, I don't want that. No. Like if you want to eat that, just go put butter in it, put it in a bowl, and eat it by yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

That's weird.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But I don't feel like the pasta's weird. But I get to also I get to use. I get to use our granddaughter, our one-year-old granddaughter as an excuse. Now I'm like, Lucy can't pick up spaghetti noodles, so we have to have bow ties. Or we have to have penne pasta so she can pick it up. So I'm gonna I'm gonna brain being on my team.

SPEAKER_03:

Because you don't get a good pasta to meat to noodle ratio when you use noodles that aren't designed for the same.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, when we use the fun noodles, I put extra sauce. There's a plan. I have a plan.

SPEAKER_03:

So my question, simple question.

SPEAKER_00:

You apparently are on Greg's team with pasta.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my god, it's such a surprise. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

When you put your blinker on. I'll be on your team someday.

SPEAKER_00:

Never.

SPEAKER_03:

When you put your blinker on, are you asking permission or making a statement? Ooh. That's a great question. I think it's all contextual.

SPEAKER_00:

Like where are you at? Circumstances. I'm on the road.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm on the road and I'll put my blinker on.

SPEAKER_00:

No, like if I'm on a two-lane road and I'm about to turn right to turn into my school, I'm letting you know that's what I'm about to turn. Yeah. I'm making a statement. I'm about to turn right. So let's do this all as friends.

SPEAKER_03:

But if we're merging people who turn their blinker on and they just come over. Yeah. Like no matter what.

SPEAKER_02:

So like if there's a car, like what would be the blind spot, right? Right. And I need to get over, I'm going to turn my blinker on and they're going to do one of two things, depending on how they drive. They're going to speed up and get past me so that I can get over, or they're going to slow down and let me over. I kind of always have thought of blinkers as how I communicate when I'm in a grocery store with a buggy. You know, like if you're going to walk down an aisle and be like, oh, excuse me, or like that way you're not like running into people.

SPEAKER_03:

You're just letting people know what you're doing where you're But how about the person in the aisle who literally leaves their buggy in the middle of the aisle and they just go start walking. I shopping looking for the colour. If they're like that feels like the aisle, I'll just move the cart.

SPEAKER_00:

I have moved carts also.

SPEAKER_02:

But if they're like right there, I'll just be like, oh, excuse me, squeeze by you here. You know you always gotta have like that's just thing you say.

SPEAKER_00:

The merge it can be either or. It's according to what kind of person is not.

SPEAKER_03:

It really depends on the kind of person you are.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it is. But I think it's contextual. Like if if someone's in your space, I feel like respectfully it should be a hey, can I get over? But if you're in their space, it's just, hey, I'm letting you know.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

But I have another follow-up question since we're talking about merging. Zipper merge or no zipper merge? Okay, let's discuss that next week. Because we're gonna get into our body.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, we're gonna get into it. Okay. All right, let's dig in.

SPEAKER_00:

So it was my turn first to share my forgiveness journey.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And you've also been on your own forgiveness journey, although it looks different. You have you f you you before you and I got together, you had your own journey. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

And so while we're while you're sharing and everyone out there who's listening, if you listen to Jess's story, you're I mean, I'm sure there were tears, and I'm sure you were like, oh my gosh, that's a wow. Like and then because this happens every time we're somewhere. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00:

Babe, you always say this.

SPEAKER_03:

This is Well, because it's so true. And then when I share my story, they're like, uh What'd you do? What'd you do? Like, what'd you do to trash your marriage? And I was like, uh, thank you. Thank you so much. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, before you start getting into that, um I want to make sure that we say that we have always promised to be and we will continue to promise to be respectful. But while we're being respectful, we're gonna be real.

SPEAKER_03:

Trying to be as real and honest as I can because this does go around the world. And um for you folks in Singapore, if you're listening to this.

SPEAKER_00:

Whoever you are, can you message us? Because I'm fascinated.

SPEAKER_03:

I would love to visit Singapore.

SPEAKER_00:

There's so many people around the world, literally around the world, that are listening to us now, and I'm just baffled. So if you hear this and you are one of the people who are literally around the world.

SPEAKER_03:

If you're not in the U.S., shoot us some shoot us a DM.

SPEAKER_00:

Please, I'm just fascinated.

SPEAKER_03:

Hit the text button and just say something. You can say something random or stupid or give us some You can give us an emoji. I don't care. You could ask us questions we should ask each other.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If you have a phone question. So like while you're sharing today, there's going to be some things that we won't share on a public broadcast because of our of your ch your children. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there's nothing that I won't share. Like if we're on a one-on-one session, if we're if if you're talking to Jess and I one-on-one, there's nothing I won't. I mean, I'll share my story. I'll share my faults, I'll share my bad things that I've done and the parts of my life. Like, I don't like I'll share those things. But here I there may be some things where I'm like, I don't I don't know as far as just for respect for Callie and Cody, our our kids. Um I don't want to there's some things I just be like, yeah, I don't want to I don't want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, because they still they have obviously still very much have a relationship with their mother, and we're not gonna tarnish that. No. And we've never tried to do that at all.

SPEAKER_03:

No, not at all. I've always tried to respect that. Right. So there's gonna be times of that, but Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And you'll hear too if you're listening, um typically um Greg is the kind of the leader of the conversations and helps drive it because that is not my that's not my strength. And so producer Michael is gonna help me do that this evening because you are telling your story. Um and you shouldn't have to drive the whole conversation for your own story. And so um we're all we're just a big team today. Yay, go team. Um so you want to give us a little bit of background of um maybe your experience growing up um to kind of lead you towards adulthood?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I'll be I'll yeah, I'll be very quick too and brief. I've shared some of it, but uh I grew up. Um my dad was an abusive dad. He was an alcoholic, uh, drank a lot, was very, very mean to my mom and to me and my sister. Uh very just a messed up guy. He had a lot of issues he never unpacked and never dealt with because his I mean, just that his life was never that.

SPEAKER_00:

So he There was some physical and emotional.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, it was lots of physical and lots of emotional. Like, yeah, I've I've been in several fist fights with my dad.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, several um just like I've seen things that a kid shouldn't have to see um in a home. Cops didn't scare me. Uh when the cops showed up, it was always a good thing. Um it wasn't a big deal when the cops showed up. I actually liked it when they were around because it felt a little safer.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um but if it wasn't for my mom through all of that, there uh Lord knows where I would be. But growing up, I was always that I'm never gonna be like this guy, I'm never gonna be like this guy, I'm never gonna be like this guy. I'm never gonna have a broken home. I'm gonna fight for uh a a healthy marriage. I'm gonna fight for like to to to be a good dad. I'm gonna fight for all these things.

SPEAKER_00:

And so your childhood taught you what you did not want to do.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. Yeah. Uh the problem is, is I never really had anybody. Like I never really had a I had I had guys in my life with my family. My stepdad was there, he would take me hunting a lot, we would do some things together. Yeah, my uncles were there, my grandfather was there to teach me work ethic and just he taught me a lot of things growing up on the farm. Um, but in the same sense, it was like there was never just a um rarely a guy that I just sit down and share my thoughts or my feelings with or just had conversations with. So I never really had a whole a dad thing. And I d I I mean to this day, just sad as it is, I d I d I still don't have that. Like I don't have a dad thing. I don't have a I don't have a guy in my life that if I call and said, hey, I'm you know, I'm wiring up the ports tonight to put some outlets on you and come hang out and have some beers and do that. Like there's nobody to call for that other than friends that I've created and I have.

SPEAKER_00:

Like that also taught you what kind of dad you want to be, because you do have that with our boys.

SPEAKER_03:

I do. I uh I probably went a little overboard from time to time. It took me a little to like um early on, I was very, very diligent and not to miss a game, not to miss anything that the kids were involved in. And so it it almost put so much pressure on me to always be at every event. Um and then I realized one time Callie was tiny. Um she was a little bitty thing, and we would read every night to her. And I was I went in to read with her one night, and um I was just we were just reading a simple book. She loved to read. And I was reading this book to her, and she just said, um, she goes, Where's your dad? Like, I've never met him.

SPEAKER_00:

Because the story had a daddy in it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and there was something about that. And I was like, and I was like, Well, my dad left oh a while back, and she goes, Why? Like, why why would a dad like leave his kid? And I was like, that's a and I started bawling. It was just a weird moment for me. Like, I'm laying in the bed with our little kid, and I'm just like emotional, and I'm like, I don't, I don't know. Yeah. And I realized then I'd never really, even in my life, unpacked that whole idea and dealt with that trauma. So I started down that road of trying to do that, and I actually took Callie to meet him. Um She was a baby. Yeah, she was tiny to try to figure out just to unpack the whole idea and just be like, all right, I gotta, I gotta I can't let this control my life.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, but my dad was so eat up with shame and guilt that he couldn't let go of all the things that he knew he had done. Um and so I mean, my dad died alone by himself, and it was he was three days uh in his house before anybody found him. And so it was it wasn't a as if when he passed away, it wasn't, but I I went and had a conversation with him. I shared my faith. I'd become a Christian at this time, and I shared my faith and um how important that was to me and how that had changed me and who I was now as a as a man and as a dad. And I encouraged him and and so and I told him to his face that I forgave him. I was like, I've I'm I'm not looking into the past, I'm gonna look to the future. Um and so just being able to have that conversation with him was a huge step for me to learn about forgiveness because I didn't harbor anger. I just had a lot of trauma and a lot of hurt that I've never unpacked.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I was angry for a while. That's what led me to, hey, let's start kickboxing, let's learn how to fight. And that was probably not the best thing for me.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, but it was fun. I loved it. I loved I I actually liked getting hit, which was weird.

SPEAKER_00:

That's strange.

SPEAKER_03:

It's like, yeah, just kick me in the head. And uh that's kind of fun. Um and so I realized like this is not a healthy place for me to go. And so I had to get out of that.

SPEAKER_00:

So all of that kind of as as you're living life and you you met the girl you're gonna marry, and what you envisioned what marriage and family was gonna look like, yeah. You knew what you did not want. So you were working towards building what you did want and what you did want for your own self as a a man and his wife. And then when you all had kids, you knew what you wanted that to look like.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And so we were very intentional. Um so even for me, like uh alcohol was a big thing for me. I went 11 years and never drank a drop. I just said I'm gonna walk away from alcohol. I'm d I I can't control this right now in my life, so I'm gonna walk away from it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So for me, it's like I think everything in moderation is not just I don't care if you're a Christian. If you can't control your eating, then figure out some boundaries. Like for me, I couldn't control my drinking, so I walked away for 11 years. Um now I I have a drink. It's not, it doesn't control me. No. Um there's there's alcohol in our fridge, in our fun fridge, in the laundry room. Um I don't and it's not like oh I gotta drink.

SPEAKER_00:

Stuff will be there for two weeks at a time.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's just like it's it's just there. And so I walked away from that. So and I was like, okay, I don't want and and uh I did all the right things.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh quote unquote right things.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, the things the church tells me to do. Yeah. And I'm not I'm not bashing the church, hear me. But as a Christian, I was told uh get in church, get in a small group, uh be involved in ministry, do these things, all these I was a pastor at the time.

SPEAKER_00:

I was gonna say, in the midst of all that, you felt the Lord had called you into ministry, so that was your full-time life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So I was teaching and preaching uh weekly, uh, as an ordained minister at that time, and just really our life evolved around church. And so it was very much we're in a small group. I'm giving, I'm tithing, I'm leading Bible studies, like youth Bible studies, college Bible studies, adult Bible. I mean, we were our own.

SPEAKER_00:

And then she was working at the church too, a little bit later on.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, she was. She she was at the church also. Um and things were great. And I just think somewhere, somehow, things got off. You know, in marriage, it's like you start everything slips, everything has those areas. It usually starts as something small. And when we look I don't when I look back, because I look back on it a lot and it was like, where did I where did it go wrong? Like where did where did I mess up? Or where did I misstep? Or where did what did I not see coming? Um, I didn't see those the warning lights on the dashboard pop up with the marriage. Um because when I had when I noticed things were off, it was way too late. Yeah. It was way too late. So um and so that was a man, that was one of those things even as a the church. I think it when when I found out it was one of those, it wasn't a I went to both the people. I I you know, I asked. I was just like, hey, what's going on?

SPEAKER_00:

Both the people meaning your wife and the other person in turn.

SPEAKER_03:

It was just like yeah, and just like, hey, what this seems weird, what's going on? There's some things, uh, let's figure this out. And so tried to walk that road for months and months. Um nothing happened, nothing was coming. And finally, um, I just kept digging until I got to a point to where it just all came to a head. Like it just all happened all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_00:

You mentioned seeing warning signs going off, but I think you and I talked about by the time there were some warning signs, if you tried to look back, it was already too late at that point.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

As far as her choices.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, we talked about too. I was like, yeah, I'm not I'm not a perfect guy. I'm not a perfect, I mean, I'm not a perfect dude. I'm never gonna say I I'm never gonna get on here and say, Oh, it's perfect. Yeah, there's been times in my life where I dealt with pornography uh and that was an issue. Uh it wasn't something that run my life. It wasn't something that was there, but yeah, I had had issues with it. I dealt with it. And and so I had guys in my life that tried to help hold me accountable to those things.

SPEAKER_00:

Um there are two sides to every story.

SPEAKER_03:

And so Well, I had people I had people literally church friends tell me, um and this is what baffles me about church people, that hey, I deserved it. I did the same thing because I looked at porn. Because you looked at porn. Uh so I looked at porn and because my wife had uh infidelity or an affair, um, it was the same thing. And I'm like, I don't, I'm sorry, I don't know. But this is not the same thing.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it is not.

SPEAKER_03:

Um the Bible does say sin is sin, no matter what that looks like. Uh but there's obviously different consequences for sin too. Right. Um that's kind of the way I looked at it. So it was just needless to say, that put me down a journey of just man, I it it happened. I I didn't realize like when it all came out, I was like just I was stunned, to say the least. Um baffled. There was a there was a few days where I don't remember uh what happened. I don't remember what was going on. I don't it was just a It's kinda like me.

SPEAKER_00:

It was kinda you you were just going through the motions, but you don't remember how you got there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think the Because I mean, you and I both experienced a trauma.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And I know it's very different kinds of trauma, but you and I both were in a marriage and we thought everything was fine and we're on the path of, you know, we're making the right choices and we're raising our family, we're having, you know, this relationship and you have your life kind of planned out. Um and both of our marriages ended very abruptly and neither one of us asked for it. And so it's kind of like you go into this whole like trauma response. Like mine lasted a lot longer because the trauma was quite different.

SPEAKER_03:

But for you Well, yours wasn't your decision or his decision. You know, ours was feels like it was a decision made in the house.

SPEAKER_00:

True.

SPEAKER_03:

Um and I don't I don't know if I can share this. I I really don't. But I think I feel like it's a part. I feel like it's a part of our because when it all came out, I remember I really, really wanted it to work. Like even after this affair had been going on, I was like, I remember saying, and this is my side of the story, so I don't I don't mean disrespect or shame for anyone, but I remember asking, I was like, we have two options here. Like the options are simple. You either tell him you're done or we're done. Like I you have to call him and tell I have to physically see you pick up the phone and call him and tell him you're never gonna talk to him again. And she said And we're done. She said, I can't I can't make that phone call. And I remember getting up from the kitchen table and I I I don't remember, I was distraught. Like I was just kind of like and I go back to my bedroom and I start packing stuff into a suitcase for some reason. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um but I remember her coming back there and she said something. And and again, this is me being completely transparent. I do remember throwing a nightstand at her.

SPEAKER_00:

Towards her?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. I don't know if I don't I don't that didn't hit her, I don't think. Um because she was there and I remember um a dear friend of mine was there, thank God. Um and was standing between us and said, um and I was just I I I I when I came to my senses, he was standing between us and I was saying a lot of inappropriate things to her. A lot of really, really mean, hurtful things. Um but I was I was just traumatized as hurt. And so he just I remember him grabbing me and saying, We have to go. And so we left and got um a friend who lived across the street, took us in a took us in his car and went to Waffle House. And I remember I I I remember getting and the the song was playing, the worship song was playing when we were going over there. And it's the um oh man, I think it's the Crowder song that he come where he talks about um um him came down and he gave this beautiful sloppy wet kiss thing.

SPEAKER_00:

What was the song How He Loves? Yeah, How He Loves, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so that song is playing, and I was just a wreck. I was just undone. I remember they're all sitting in the car because they don't know what to do either. Uh these are three of my friends that are in this car with me. And I remember getting out of the parking lot, I just laid in the parking lot and was just sobbing. Um which happened to me a lot in the next few months. Um but I think it was it was one of those things it's just like, okay, this is a bad this is a bad nightmare, and it's gonna so that was the trauma of when it happened. I was like, okay, I can get past this. Yeah. And so I can we can figure this out. And so for the next few months, I did everything I could to try to make it work.

SPEAKER_04:

Try to fix it.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh yeah. I was um I wanted to know for myself that I had done absolutely everything I could in my willpower to make this work for us and for Callie and Cody, and it had been 14 years of marriage. Uh so was a lot of life. Um and so I tried. I was I was fasting, I was reading God's word, I was uh going through a book. I was going to be aware of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there was a popular couples book out at that point that you had tried to do with her and she would not.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I wound up doing it myself. It's called Fireproof.

SPEAKER_00:

Or like the love dare, like fireproof your marriage or something like that.

SPEAKER_03:

It was horrible for me at the time. It was probably a horrible decision. But I remember every day I would go to Eagle Ranch and I would sit in the chapel on the second row on the right hand side and I would just pray and cry and pray and cry. And I did that for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, what's sweet about that spot? That's where we got married.

SPEAKER_03:

It is the spot where we got married. It's kind of cool. Um and so I um I remember one day I just went and God said, Okay, it's okay. It's okay to let go. Um because I felt like in that time period I had just been beating my head against the concrete floor trying to make someone change that didn't really want to change. And I don't know why. I don't I don't know if you're not.

SPEAKER_00:

You do know why, because you didn't want your kids to No, I don't know why she didn't want to change.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, I didn't know the circumstances behind that either.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no. Um I don't feel like you ever got those answers, though.

SPEAKER_03:

No, but I was fighting for the family and for the kids. And I'm not saying she wasn't. She may have been in her way. I don't know if she was just still encapsulated in this affair because it wasn't like a one-night thing. It was an ongoing thing for a long time. Um so I get there was emotions and feelings there, but I was not the guy that's like, hey, I'm gonna I'm not gonna hang out at the house and just sit here while you mourn losing this guy and then decide you want to stay with me. I can't I can't do that.

SPEAKER_00:

After you after she knew that he wasn't an option to move forward with the Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it wasn't that wasn't that I think and that it's it's weird. I think that's God's timing almost because I had been fighting and fighting, fighting, and then I realized um when God said, Okay, we're done, I went and I said, All right, I'm done. Let let's get a divorce, let's figure this out. I'm gonna be as nice as I can, I'll be as cordial as I can, I'm gonna do what I can to make this right by you. Uh you're a good mom. We're just not good married together.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so let's figure this out. And so um from that I and then after that, when that happened, it realized he wasn't gonna be an option anymore. And and then it switched from, okay, I want to work this out now. Um and I was like, I'm I'm past that. Like I can't go back. Like I can't get back to the back. Yeah. And so that was the I mean, just man, there was so much anger and frustration and hurt around all that that I just Yeah. I and it wasn't all her. It was just a lot of other just angry too.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I just worked really, really hard to try to get something. And it's like, dude, I did all the right things.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I didn't want to be around church. I didn't want to be around anything. I tried to go to church, I tried to do those things, but the church is really weird toward people in divorce. Um, I was made to feel like I was a bad guy because I didn't work it out. I didn't I wouldn't do whatever it took to work it out, which people don't know what happened, and they just made assumptions. Um and so people still make assumptions about me and how that went and what it did. And and for me, I'm like, I'm not angry at her. I'm not frustrated at her.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not I think the church just doesn't know what to do with that now because it's more common uh now for someone to be divorced or in a second marriage or whatever the case may be. Um and the church just doesn't know what to do with that because it's like, but did you sit down and talk about with so-and-so about how they got to there? Like, did they ask for that or did it just happen? Like there's so many different circumstances now.

SPEAKER_03:

There's always more to the story. So it's like ask some questions, get to the s get to the bottom of it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, and figure those things out. Was I I mean, I when when it happened, I was I was a wreck. Like I was just a I was a wreck, emotional wreck.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um there were times where I literally would just drink myself to sleep and I would um because some of the stuff had happened in our house, I'd found that out because it was like I found some secret emails and said, Oh, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. Well, just tell me, man, you don't want to dig. You're in those situations, don't dig. You don't need to know the details because that's more stuff you gotta unpack.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

It's not fun to unpack. But I didn't want to go in my house.

SPEAKER_00:

Furniture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I would just I mean, I even for me, like, I didn't want to be in the house because the house represented so much more than just uh man, I was just I would literally lay on my front step. Sometimes I'd prop up against the door and I would sleep outside. I slept in the garage a few times, I slip on the front porch.

SPEAKER_00:

Because that home that you lived in was where you were, you know, it's a home we built together.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that wasn't your first home, but that was what I was about to say. You built that home together. There was so much intentionality in every square foot. And that's just where you thought that you were living life together.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and it took me a while before I could go back in there. But I realized pretty early on, I don't know how or why, but I realized I gotta let go of this stuff and I gotta figure out how to move on. Like I can't carry this with me. Yeah um this this pain, this hurt, this guilt is going to literally eat me alive. Like I'm gonna make stupid decisions. And I was making stupid decisions at that time. And I because we had our I had my kids for seven days and they were with her for seven days. The seven days they weren't with me, I just I was an idiot. I was I had no self-esteem. I had no self-worth. I felt horrible. So um did I make great decisions? No. Do I feel bad for a lot of those? Some, yes, I feel horrible for some of those. But some of them I'm like, I was just trying to figure out what to do. I was just trying to figure out life.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think How did you figure out that there is life after an affair is how you know you could phrase it. But how did you figure out there is life after that trauma?

SPEAKER_03:

Initially I thought, man, no one's gonna want me. I'm I'm in my 30s. I got two kids. Um I don't have anything going for me right now. Like who in the world's gonna be like, oh yeah, sign me up for that? Uh I want to go out with that guy. Uh yeah, because even on our second date, uh apparently I had really, really big trust issues, which I know I did.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, what's the situation?

SPEAKER_03:

Huge trust issues with trusting anyone. So it was a um it was a journey for me to let go. But I know the first step in that journey was forgiving her and forgiving him and just saying, Hey, we all I I I say this in a way that I I don't condone any any any stupid behavior. But we're probably all maybe one to two really bad decisions away from just trashing our life.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. And so it's like if if you're not humble enough to kind to admit that, yeah. You know, we are human. We yeah. And so that is the truth.

SPEAKER_03:

There's and and to this day, I mean, she's a she's remarried. I hope she's doing great. Um great mom to the kids. Um and so it's like we've moved on from that. It's been fifteen years ago that that happened.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Ross Powell 15 or 16. We were talking about that earlier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So it's been a it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_00:

So you really did, you came to kind of a crossroads of are you gonna keep trying to, you know, rebuild or or find that trust in you? Because you one of your friends kind of presented you with a okay, here you are. Are you going to find your own way and put yourself back together for yourself and Callie and Cody? Or are you gonna keep trying to to put it, put your marriage back together? Because let's just say, you know, if she said, I have to stop by the grocery store on the way home, or I have some errands to run, are you gonna be a trust her if that's what she says? So you had to you had to figure out the Yeah, it really came to that point.

SPEAKER_03:

And then it was that was the hard part. Like, but once you made like once I made that decision, because he did ask me that question, and I remember I remember we're st I remember where we're at when he asked me that. And it really kind of was like, yeah, I don't know. I think I think marriages can be I'm not saying once there's been an an affair, an adultery, or whatever it may be, whatever you want to call it. I don't I don't know the correct word.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Once that's happened, can you rebuild and have a healthy marriage? I'm I'm sure some people do. You just gotta I mean you almost gotta wipe the stake slate clean and like this is a brand new start, and you gotta be able to let go and not hold baggage.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like you literally gotta burn the bags and be like, this is a brand new marriage. Um and I I I I was at a place where I couldn't do that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I was like, we broke something that I just literally can't put back together.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, and I don't know if I'm at a spot where I wanna try to build something new in this. Like, and so that was that was the decision that kind of led for me. And then I realized pretty quick, I was I I mean, I was sitting at a bar with a a friend of mine, Dustin. And Dustin and I were just sitting there having a beer, and these girls come up to talk to us, and it was just like the weirdest thing is this epiphany going, I could hear this in my head going, what the hell are you doing?

SPEAKER_04:

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_03:

Like, why are we here? Um and I remember just telling him, I was like, hey bro, I gotta go. Like I'm done. Um he's like, All right, I'll go with you. We don't know where we're going. And so I was like, let's just go home. So uh I remember getting up, and that was the last time I went into a bar um for a long, long time. Uh because I was just like, I gotta I gotta make some changes. I can't do this.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you once you had decided that you were moving on and you came to grips with your new reality, you knew that that's where you would not meet any woman that you might want to share your life with.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, yeah, because I'm like, who's gonna be like if I meet someone, they gotta be okay and they gotta be good with Callie and Cody.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so raising my kids with me, and that's a huge thing for me. So yeah, it was a I mean, that was a lot. It started me down a road of um but the forgiveness part was it was like a weight of lifting, just carrying around a backpack full of rocks forever. And just being able to take that and set it down and go like, I don't I don't harbor hard feelings against you. I'm not mad at you. I'm just I gotta let I gotta lay this down and I gotta let you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so usually in our podcast we have an unpack session, and I mean that's not really the case this time necessarily, because when I shared my forgiveness journey, there wasn't really an unpack. Um so I know for you that as you were moving forward and you decided that you were gonna take the next step towards, you know, whatever God might have for you if if you met someone new or whatever. But that the first big step for you was to rebuild that trust. It that was kind of hard for you. Yeah, it was not kinda. It was difficult for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it took me a while.

SPEAKER_00:

It did.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And we stay a while. We only knew each other for eight months when we got married, but okay.

SPEAKER_03:

It feels like a while to me. Because things I always think my life moves in slow motion. And you're and my kids are like even Cody said the other day, he goes, Do you ever just sit down and just chill? Because I yeah, on Saturdays when football's home, but that's about it.

SPEAKER_00:

No, you don't even sit down on Saturdays.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I don't usually I'm sitting down. Usually the hooping and hollering and it's not.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's usually Sunday afternoons is really the only time like we get home from church, we both put on pajamas and we don't move off the couch the rest of the day. Sunday is really the only day we don't move.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Unless we have plans or we're gonna go on an adventure with family or whatever. But um that was the building trust was hard. But then also as you're moving forward with building trust, not even just before you met me, you had to learn to trust again. Um, but you had to build back your self-esteem, you had to build back your self-worth. And while you were still, you know, working on those things, is that took a while. Um, and then we met. And then we had to work together, we had to work really hard for you to know that you can trust me.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And I I even still now sometimes I deal with the self-worth issue and self-uh self-esteem stuff. I mean, I think that's a it's a normal thing, but as a dude, that's just that's really, really hard.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um and how you deal with it. People deal with loss and divorce and stuff in different ways. And mine may not have been the healthiest way. I mean, I had I was literally when it I it happened, I had I guarantee you, eight guys show up at my house and said, the same thing's happened to me. What do I do? And I was like, bro, I was drunk right here on this front door last night. I I don't know what the hell to tell you. I'm trying to keep my feet under me right now. Like, I don't know. I don't I don't know what to do. Like he's like, well, I don't know what to do either. Well, go figure it out. That's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't know what to do together. I feel like um I know that I said in the beginning I was gonna rely on you to help me ask my question.

SPEAKER_02:

I know y'all have been doing a great job though. I feel like I did okay. You did great. Well, I do have a question. Okay. If we still have time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Um talking about forgiveness, what led you to forgive? And on multiple sides, one being your father, your ex-wife. But also one very common thing, and because I know I've experienced it in in my divorce and things I went through, but also in other people's divorce as well, is so many times there is a such a um uh uh overly harsh self-analyzation.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And we have a hard time. One, we overthink things of what we did, every action we did. Even if you didn't even do anything wrong, it still feels like you did.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So how did you not only learn or what led you to uh start that process of forgiving others, but then also yourself to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_00:

Before you answer, I will say he still overly self-analyzes himself till this day. I mean, it's been a long time since all of that happened to him, and we've been married for almost 13 years. You still overanalyze yourself. And I feel like I I just just I will speak from experience. I feel like you have a a lot of of freedom to be who you are in our marriage. I've never asked you to be anything more than just who you are, you just show up and I love you because of that, but you still you really overanalyze yourself.

SPEAKER_03:

I have unrealistic expectations for myself. Yes, you do. Um, I expect way more out of myself. Um dude, I'm I'm I mean, if you if you pick, there's a handful of people you could call right now and they would say every single bit of that. Um my divorce was my fault. Um and it took me a while to deal with that. It took me a while to deal with losing uh uh some of my best friends.

SPEAKER_00:

Because friends will pick a side every time.

SPEAKER_03:

They always pick a side. And that's I mean, as crazy as it sounds, that's probably one of the harder things too, because you just feel alone. Um it just feels out there. I think the thing that pushed me to have to forgive was with my dad, it was my anger and my that was an anger that was just growing in me that just made me I was just an anger I was I I didn't mind fighting. I didn't mind if you mouth off to me, I was like, okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00:

But then you realized I was a reflection of him, and that's what you did not want to be.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. I was like, I am the guy that I never wanted to be. I am a mirror image of that. And so I was like, I have to stop that. And the only way to stop that was to let go of that pain and that hurt. And so that was the step for him for forgiveness. The it's honestly though, um, with my ex-wife, it was I'm gonna have to talk to her for the next 15 years because of our kids. So I have to figure out how to let go of this so I'm not hating and angry at her every time I pick up the kids or drop the kids off.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, then when we have grandchildren from Callie and Cody, we're still gonna be there. But what about for for folks who did not have children with their exes and you still have to deal with all those same feelings? Like how what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_03:

Anger and and frustration is like um it's like drinking poison and and expecting the worst for the other person. It's like you you you're creating the damage for yourself. Forgiveness isn't for them, forgiveness is for you. For yourself, yeah. It's it's totally for you to move on. Like, um, because that will affect every relationship you have from uh moving forward. Um you gotta let go of that. You can't you know the I've I've heard the old ad those saying so many times, um you can't you can't grab the future if you're holding on to the past.

SPEAKER_00:

That's so true.

SPEAKER_03:

And so it's like you just gotta sometimes open your hands up and let go.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so it's not an easy thing. By no means it's a process. It's a it's not a one-time, I'm done, I'm good process.

SPEAKER_00:

And forgiveness, no matter how you arrive to the point where you have the choice whether to give it or not or to let go of it or not, it's hard. But no matter how you get to that point, whether it be through my experience or your experience or any other experience that any of our listeners might have been through, forgiveness equals freedom.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's definitely freedom. It really does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's freedom.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So my unpack, and I know we're over our time. If I'm telling you to unpack, I'm saying, man, start the steps toward forgiveness. And and and you're right, there's so much freedom on the other side of that. Um because it really is like you're carrying around a weight on you.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, you're carrying around this thing. Um your personality is going to determine on how fast that happens for you and what that looks like, and it's always different. Um, I am hypercritical of myself because I always producer Michael and I read a book together, and I asked him the other day, we're having coffee, and I was like, You ever thought like I got another gear? Like, I have another gear. I can go faster. And he's just like, mmm, okay. And I was like, like for me, it's it's one of those things like I always want to push myself to see what I could do. Like, yeah, I ran a half marathon without training. I was like, yeah, I can do that. So I ran a half marathon. Then I was like, oh, I can run another one. And so then it just led to this. The whole idea for me, though, like I do things differently in my life. I get that. Um but for anyone out there, if you've been in this situation, you're probably more in the situation I've been in than you were with Jess Trevor.

SPEAKER_00:

Likely. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_03:

They're both they're both. Not hopefully.

SPEAKER_00:

Ugh, that's weird to say.

SPEAKER_03:

I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

I think I know what you mean. I hope the listeners don't know. I know what you mean. Okay. But divorce is so prevalent and so It is. Um there's so many blended families out there. I can tell you this if you don't forgive your ex and you don't move past that, you're bringing all that really toxic, really bad baggage into the marriage that you have now with the present kids, with the wife.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's gonna make it even harder.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah. It makes it way harder. You just dumped a bunch of toxicity.

SPEAKER_02:

If we if we held on to all the baggage we've ever accumulated over our life.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Like it would be so overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I would agree. And I mean, it's not like not to turn forgiveness into a self-focused thing, but you become so much healthier when you forgive.

SPEAKER_00:

You do, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and I I think that yeah, if you do take a self uh uh absorbed approach to forgiveness, you might not fully re- get to that forgiving part. But if you can truly forgive someone else, understanding that we're all human, we all have flaws, it doesn't excuse what they did, but still be able to have forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00:

Forgiveness doesn't equal your excuse for your actions. Forgiveness is I'm gonna let go of it because I know that you're human. I'm also human. I've got to let go of it. I can't carry that anymore. I can't carry it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. It's letting go of a lot of things. It is. So um well, all right.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we're we did it, and I asked you questions this time.

SPEAKER_03:

Good job. We went a little longer than we wanted to. Thanks. So I just I just want to say thanks everybody so much for uh listening for your support. Uh we are truly working on trying to make baggage clean better. We've been work I've been working on the website at night when I'm not working.

SPEAKER_00:

It is true. We do a lot of things, but he does carry a lot of the weight of the behind-the-scenes things.

SPEAKER_03:

We're trying to get some baggage claim merch out there so you can wear like hats or t-shirts or sweatshirts. We'll wear them. If you want to wear one and you want to buy one, awesome. Uh if you don't, I don't blame you. It's okay. Uh but at the same time, it's like we're working on trying to get these things out there. Yeah. Um, it just takes time because we both have full-time jobs and uh this is something we're doing for fun. Uh just help us spread the word. Please like, subscribe, um, pass this around, share it with other friends, family.

SPEAKER_00:

We genuinely appreciate you joining us.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, thank you so much. I mean, just I told Jess the other day, I was like, someone listened to your forgiveness story that was in Salem, Oregon. Someone listened to your forgiveness story that was in Pennsylvania. Uh and I was like, how cool is that that your story gets to share? And so thank you guys for allowing us to share our lives and our stories.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh we want to be respectful, we want to be honest and and authentic uh with who we are. And so thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, enjoy and um have a great evening too.

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Greg & Jess

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