Opposites Attract… Until Someone Is Late For Church

What if the secret to a lasting relationship isn’t finding the right person, but learning how to change together on purpose? We dive headfirst into the messy middle of modern love: the difference between secrecy and privacy, the myth that you can “fix” your partner, and why small, consistent habits beat grand promises every time.

We open with an honest take on trust. Privacy is a healthy boundary everyone can name; secrecy is a hidden behavior designed to avoid consequences. That lens reshapes common flashpoints like phones, passwords, and social media. Then we move into the bigger arc: seasons. Careers shift, kids arrive, parents age, and suddenly you’re not the people you were in your twenties. That’s not failure—it’s life. The couples who thrive learn to re-commit at each stage, updating roles, rituals, and expectations. We share practical ways to do it, from weekly touchpoints and simple date rituals to monthly money talks and quarterly check-ins that keep you aligned when life gets loud.

Along the way, we talk friend groups and advice culture—how yes-men can wreck your marriage and how to choose counsel from people living the outcomes you want. We unpack the gym metaphor for love: progress requires reps. One book or retreat won’t save a relationship any more than one workout gives you abs. What does work is deliberate movement: naming what used to connect you, celebrating what connects you now, and choosing one small behavior to practice together for two weeks. Movement breaks stagnation; growth follows attention.

If you’re ready to steer instead of drift—build trust, set better boundaries, and say yes to each other again—this conversation will meet you where you are. Listen, share it with a partner or friend, and tell us the one small change you’re starting this week. Subscribe, leave a review, and join us at unpacktogether.com and on Patreon to go deeper with the community.

Transcript

Welcome & Growing Community Milestones

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Hey guys, what's up? I'm Greg. I hope you guys are ready to unpack and get into some good conversations today.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast, Baggage Claim. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 0:17

What's up, everybody? How are you doing today? Welcome to Baggage Claim. I hope everybody's doing all right. If you're new here, thank you for joining us. Baggage Claim is a place where we hope to create some community and some conversations around relationships, blended families, all those good things in between. And if you call Baggage Claim your home and you've been back many times, take a deep breath. And that's what we always say grab your favorite drink, whatever that may be, depending on how your day is, and you pull up to the table with us.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yeah, and welcome to some of our new friends. Our community has grown again.

Live Show Recap And Set Up

SPEAKER_05 0:52

Yeah. We um we jumped six countries today. Six new countries. Yeah. Um in a day. It's kind of crazy. We're we're on record to have our largest download month uh so far this month. We're only about 10 away, and we got four more days. Ten to fifteen away, I think. So um it's just crazy. It keeps growing. So thank you guys for listening. Thank you guys for sharing. We just recorded our 50th episode live, which was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

I didn't I didn't die. I didn't pass out. No, you almost did. Yeah, I did. Yeah. So I made it.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

So we had uh we had some folks there and we did lots of giveaways and uh it's just fun. We had a a big cake, we'll post it online of our um uh big 50th yeah, local bakery did an amazing job.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yeah, so it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

So anyway, when we jump into our topic today, because uh this is one of those topics that affects you, whether you've been married, whether you're just in a relationship and you're thinking about getting married, or you've been married for 15, 20 years. Um you may know a little bit more about this, but we're all gonna find ourselves uh somewhere in this topic tonight.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

So But before we jump in, it's questions.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

We need someone with like a deep voice, like the word. Yeah, okay, Thomas. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

All right, so we have two questions. One is a little bit silly-ish, and the other one's not so much. So, Thomas, why don't you kick us off with your question?

SPEAKER_03 2:23

If you had to lose a toe, which toe would you lose? I'm saying my middle toe. You just went for the middle, huh? You think the other ones would just take up the space? Well, then you can't um You're not you're not you don't you're not losing it medical reasons or anything like that. You just gonna disappear to pick up. No, you're just cutting a toe.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Really? Miranda said her index finger toe. It gets caught on everything, it's longer than my big toe.

SPEAKER_06 2:55

Yeah, the one okay. I had it.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

It makes sense. I've never heard it called that before. Index big toe.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

I was just thinking it would be my ring finger toes. The second the last.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

This one went to the market. That one had roast beef toe. Like that one, the roast beef toe. Yeah, the roast pig toe. The roast beef. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

I don't think this little piggy went to market. This little piggy stayed home. This little piggy.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Oh, so it's a stay home piggy.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

No, mine's a little piggy that had none is the toe I would get rid of. Because mine are deformed.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

I'm going for the little one just for my OCD and my A D. Just start from the end and work your way one way.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

But my second to last toe, they don't, they're not straight. They like duck and cover under the other guys. So I feel like they're they're useless anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

All right. That's a great question from the EMT.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

You think pinky?

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Yeah. I would go with the I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

I feel like, and this sounds weird to say, but I feel like it's the most useless. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Could be.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Less price. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

And I could be wrong entirely, and like I'd be like, if you're a foot specialist out there and we're wrong, then you're going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, please let us know how wrong we all are.

SPEAKER_05 4:02

Also, too, for you guys that are listening, if you're listening and you have a question or there's something comes up, there's a place on there, and I know you may be driving. Don't do this while you're driving. Um, but there's a place where you can just send a text. If you punch in, say whatever you want to do, send a text. We get those. And so what you mean to say.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Are you gonna sing it now?

SPEAKER_04 4:22

I wanted to. That's all you did.

Secrecy vs Privacy And Trust

SPEAKER_02 4:24

You really wanted to. Okay. So the more serious question. It said, let's see, do you think there's a difference between secrecy and privacy? And if so, what is it? And that question came from a book that we have used all along. It's a year of us. One question a day to spark fun and meaningful conversations by Alicia Munoz. And we keep saying we want her to have her on here with us, but I'll repeat the question. Do you think there's a difference between secrecy and privacy? And if so, what is it?

SPEAKER_05 5:00

Alicia, if you're out there, uh please reach out.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

What do you think, Miranda?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

I think there is a difference. Oh, I do too.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

Oh, there's a difference.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Like once you lose trust, that then becomes where's the line where you lose trust of between secrecy and privacy?

SPEAKER_03 5:19

That's another deep question. I know. Wow. I feel like privacy is something that you can do by yourself that your spouse will know about. But then secrecy is your thing that you do that you don't want a single soul to know about.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

That's exactly my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Secrecy is what you don't want somebody to find out.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Yeah, like farting in the truck. Yeah. Or like drinking and eating your boogers. It's like a secrecy thing, you don't want people to know.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

I agree. Secrecy is something that you don't want somebody to find out about. Privacy is like if you need to go for a walk, Greg, and you're just like, I just need a minute. You need some privacy, and that's that's fine, but I know about it.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Well, like privacy too. Like, if you get caught doing your private thing, you're not like, oh no. Right. It's like this is something that I like to do by myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:12

Well, privacy is knowing, but not knowing all the details.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

Like to go on your road, you just talked about, you know, if you get caught doing your private thing, that's more embarrassing. Yes. But if you get caught doing a secret thing, it's more like damaging.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah. That'd be a good way to put that.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Look at all of us agreeing. What is happening?

SPEAKER_05 6:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

For some reason, my head went to like cheating. It did.

SPEAKER_05 6:38

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

That's where my brain went.

SPEAKER_05 6:40

Mine didn't go there. Y'all need theory.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Mine didn't either. Mine didn't go there.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

Where did your mind go? No. It didn't go to that.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

No, my example in my head was like, this is a sticky subject for some couples, but like, if if you don't want your spouse looking through your phone, or if you don't have that trust, that's secrecy. But you know, games or apps or whatever, like that's your phone. That's your private phone. Yeah. But if if I pick up, I'm just hypothetically because we don't care, but if I pick up your phone and you have a mini panic attack because there's secrets on there, that's different. Yes. That's different.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Gotcha. Okay. Dude, that's a whole episode.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Again, wherever it is.

SPEAKER_05 7:25

Phone phone phone. That is a whole episode right there. Yeah, phone is an episode.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah. I hate them. We need to bookmark that. I will write it.

SPEAKER_05 7:34

If we ever do a marriage retreat, I want it to be like, hey, check in with everyone and then take your phone and throw it out the window. We're so attached to those things. Anyway. So let's jump into the topic today. Um, this is one of those that we're we I cannot tell you, everybody who's listening out there, we usually have our topic. We sit down to dinner, uh, we talk through that. If you want to see footage of all that and hear some of our conversations of how that goes, um, we're gonna start having those on Patreon so you can join on Patreon and see all that, hear that. But sometimes we talk through our episodes. This one we started talking through and we said, nope.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

We have to stop.

Phones, Boundaries, And Transparency

SPEAKER_05 8:14

Let's do it live on on the air, I guess you call it. Is this a good one? Because even in our planning technically, no. Okay, well, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Even in the planning conversation, it was good conversation. That's when I was like, oh wait, stop. Let's just let's just go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

So go ahead and pose the question, like to to to kick us off into this idea.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Well, the whole idea is about change. And so um where we're gonna change.

SPEAKER_05 8:42

What is it with y'all was singing absolutely everything? Everything.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

I don't even know the words for the rest of that. Then don't sing it. I sang three quarters of it.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

Three quarters.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Um but the idea is change is going to happen. It just is. So as we go through the conversation, we're gonna navigate that, or at least try to. Um, but I think that there's a lot of people who get into a relationship or a marriage and they think that they are gonna be able to change the person that they're getting into relationship with. It could be something as simple as I I say simple as, let me rephrase that. It could be something like a shared faith or like thereof, or you know, thinking, well, if I can just marry him, he'll go to church with me or what have you.

SPEAKER_05 9:29

Well, sometimes guys, um like when you're in that dating, you go to church to to meet girls, like a good place to meet girls, and you may not have any kind of faith-based kind of any relationship or any of that. You just go there because there's girls there.

Today’s Theme: Change In Relationships

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah. Um, I was thinking too about, you know, what let's pretend like one person in the relationship has a really close relationship with their family and their and the other one does not. And you think to yourself, well, if I can just, you know, get him involved in in my life and my family, then he's gonna want to make sure that he does that with his own family. We're gonna I'm gonna change the way he thinks about that.

SPEAKER_05 10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

I think there's a lot more people that do that than think than we think.

SPEAKER_05 10:12

So uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Because you don't realize most of the time in the moment what you are doing. True.

The Myth Of Changing Your Partner

SPEAKER_05 10:21

Well, it's but I mean, in all reality, opposites attract. Like you you like if you're quiet, you're usually attracted to someone who's a little more outgoing, uh someone who's reserved. You know, there's those those opposites kind of attract each other, and then you're just like, oh my God, they're so pretty. Oh my god, stop. And so it's like this infatuation stage of where they can do no wrong, and you think that's amazing, up until the point where you're four years into this, and a pet peeve of mine is like this is one thing for us that um I I wanted to change in you, and then I just gave up on it was being on time. Uh, because I hate being late. Like if if I'm if I'm not 10 minutes early, we're late. And so I love to be early to something. Jess could care less. She'll walk in in the middle of it uh and be okay with that. She's like, we got here.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

I'm way better. You should have seen me before you can't. I mean, what woo. It was bad for a long time.

SPEAKER_05 11:23

Well, I was working at church. Uh there was a stint where I was at church, so I would get up and leave really early on Sunday mornings, and Jess would so I'd text you and I'd be like, Hey, you're gonna be at church? Yeah, I'll be there. I'd say, Okay, I saved us some seats. We were at uh Twelfthone, which was fairly it was crazy growing at at the time. And it was and so for me to hold six seats down on the floor was a big ordeal. Yeah. I'm like threatening people.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

And then sometimes it would be like five minutes before service, we're not gonna make it. And then the entire time I'd be sitting there like, Mom, we gotta go. Yeah, yeah. You gotta go, Mom, we gotta get out the door.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah, you were so sweet about it though. But the thing of my downfall was I say downfall, but like the campus that you worked at was 30 minutes from home. It was. Meanwhile, when I knew we weren't gonna make it to his campus, there was one 10 minutes down the road that I knew that I could get all me and all four kids to on time.

SPEAKER_05 12:15

And so But that uh not not that's not the issue. The issue was is that that was one of those things where I'm like, can you just not be on time?

SPEAKER_02 12:23

No, I couldn't.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Um and so it was it that that's a little thing. Yeah like that's not like a big, big thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Honey, I've never wanted to change anything about you. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:35

Wow. Wow. If you guys couldn't see the sarcasm through your radio or whatever you're listening on, there's a lot of it. It's really thick here. So um we we have this, it's so we have these opposites. We come together, everything's beautiful, everything's great, and then you as when that starts wearing off, you start noticing these changes. And then it's it's almost like Miranda, though, sometimes you don't realize you're wanting those changes or you're trying to change them kind of passively.

SPEAKER_06 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:08

Um, but then you get into that point, which is so weird, especially in dating. If you're in a dating relationship, um and you have somebody in there very controlling, and they'll be like, it won't be this way once we get married.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

But that's why we referred who you referred to Miranda because not with Thomas, but in in a in a previous series relationship, you had some experience with this. Yes. Would you like to share a little bit? Yeah, that was very elaborate. Thanks for bringing into that. Yes, I did. It's a very good question. Thank you for asking it.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

He was very controlling, but I didn't realize it until one time. What were we doing? Okay, it was right before graduation. We were getting the house ready, graduation party. My mom printed off pictures, we were hanging them up. I wasn't on my phone while we were doing that. End of the world. End of the world.

Opposites Attract And Friction Points

SPEAKER_02 14:08

He was texting and calling, and you were right there. Yeah. So I know that you had shared that there was like a lot of breakup, get back together, breakup, get back together. But the get back together part was where you had always hoped that maybe it'd be a little different.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, there were always promises. Like if we get back together, I promise I'm gonna do better. Not controlling. Right. I'm gonna trust you more. Right. So on so forth. Break up, get back together. I promise I'm gonna change. Here I'm gonna buy you all these things you've been asking for. Break up again, get back together, more promises.

SPEAKER_05 14:45

So were you just did you do that so you could get more stuff from him?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

I think at the end of it, yeah. Maybe maybe so by the way. I'm breaking up with you.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

I would like a iPad, we had this, and I would like that. I mean, maybe so too. I'm sorry, it's nothing to kid about. Because there's a lot of people out there. See, this is why I think for me, I think it's very there's two things. One, I think it's very, very important to have a friend group around you that you love and trust, and they know you, and they know you very well.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

So as someone that can be like, hey, Miranda, like you Well, my best friend at the time tried to point it out, and then she got so annoyed that I kept getting back together with him, she just left. Yeah, which is my only friend at that point. Yeah. What Thomas?

SPEAKER_03 15:31

It's kind of like AJ. Like he goes back to AJ out on the text me about it, whatever he wants to. But it's kind of like AJ. It's like he goes back to the same thing and he knows he does it. He has a pattern for sure. Like mad for me calling him out because he'll admit that he does it. But it's the same person every time. It is the same looking girl every time. He goes for the same girl. He does. And he gets hurt the same way every time. We all do that though. Like that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 16:00

We all do it.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Um well most of the time we do that. Because I said the four the the the second thing was is I never got to that. The first thing was have a friend group or people around you that you trust and you listen to. Yeah. Not just have them around and listen to. The second part, and uh here again, I'm jumping on the soapbox again. All those things, the trust issues, the the going back to the same, all of those are are me issues. They're they're they're self-issues. And so when you pull all those things away and you look at yourself, you're like, why am I so controlling? Why do I not trust anyone? Why do I not trust her?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Or why does this keep happening to me?

SPEAKER_05 16:38

Yeah, why do I keep falling into the same rut over and over and over? It's the same cycle over and over. So it's having some people or even yourself that you can self-evaluate and go, why is this happening? Because it doesn't matter. Like you may be married for five years and you find yourself in this situation.

SPEAKER_06 16:58

Yeah.

Control, Promises, And Breakup Cycles

SPEAKER_05 16:58

Um, but you've never stopped to be honest with yourself and going, why do I act this way? And why does she act this way? Like, why why do we continue this cycle over and over again? What is within us that cre you know that causes us to do these things, that causes me to do these things?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

It you know, we were talking about dating and you keep trying the same thing, but on the flip side, when you're married, change is gonna happen anyway, too. Oh, 100%. The the idea of change is inevitable. It's going to happen.

SPEAKER_05 17:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

But then it's like what you do with it is what matters.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

So go ahead, Miranda. You were gonna say something?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

No, I was agreeing.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

Oh, okay. So I I I really uh that's the tricky part, I think, in all of this is in relationships saying because who you are in your twenties is not who you're gonna be in your thirties. Who you are in your thirties is not gonna be in your forties and even in your fifties. Like you change through those.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

If you get married in your twenties, when you think it's gonna be like that forever.

SPEAKER_05 17:58

Yeah, because I guarantee you there's so many things that happen that change things.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:02

You get a house, you get jobs, you get a kid, you get so many different things that changes who you are, uh how you it just it just does. And so being able to do those things together is where so many marriages just struggle.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

And that's I think the whole the big idea is changing together. Because you each are going to change, like you just addressed, but it's it's knowing that and then changing together is I are in a season of change right now with myself, but figuring out who I am now, both as me, but a mother and wife, him as a father and a husband. Yeah. That's a lot. I mean, if you think back literally five years is a very short span of time that y'all have been together as a couple, and a lot has happened in that. And if if you two are still looking at each other like you're 20 and 21, and you know, like you're the most dreamy thing I've ever seen in my life, it was like, well, I want you to still think that about each other, obviously, but you've become homeowners, you've become you know, you have two full-time jobs, you're a stay-at-home mommy, there's a baby, there there's all these things that you're juggling, and if you have not actually literally changed together, then it's like, where are you going?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, we were literally teenagers when we met, which is crazy. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Well, we were not teenagers when we met.

SPEAKER_05 19:30

I felt like a teenager sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

I acted like one sometimes as an idiot.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

But that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

But I mean, just I mean, you and I had lived a whole life separately before we got together, so like life had kind of forced some changes on us.

SPEAKER_05 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

But even in spending.

SPEAKER_05 19:47

Well, for us, our change just wasn't us.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:49

It was change with uh four kids involved. With you and I, there were changes in so many things that we're trying to navigate because we know we enjoyed spending time just the two of us. But how do we sp enjoy spending time with all four of us all together all the time?

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Um But then we have to keep in mind it was about me and you too, though, at the core. Like we're not the same people that we were when we got together.

Friends, Feedback, And Better Baselines

SPEAKER_05 20:12

Oh Lord, no. No. I mean, I'm not saying it's it's bad or it's good. I'm just saying it's just different. Um, I followed this guy on on TikTok. He's a doctor, and he says if if you want to have successful marriage, you don't just fall in love and say yes once. You do it four times over your lifetime. For all those different seasons of life that you go through, you have to you have to fall in love again and say yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

I fall in love every day all over again. Oh my god. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:47

Yeah. People are cussing you right now in this hard.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

No, the number four is interesting.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Well Did he say what the four are?

SPEAKER_05 20:55

Uh yes. When I don't know what they are. Because I don't know what they are. Um but the idea is it's the same thing. Like when you're in your 20s, you don't have kids. You said yes to that person, you got married, then you have kids, then you have careers, then you have empty nesters, like kids are leaving, you're empty nesters, you're back at home. So there's all those different stages you have to continue to say yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

And and fall in and continually to fall in love with them because each other.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah. Because what happens when you don't, when everybody, when all the kids leave, then you're like, I don't know who you are. We did not change together. I don't even like you.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

You know, you haven't learned to grow together. You should.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

So many times you hear couples that when their kids go off to college, they get divorced. Um and now there's a it's a big it's called a gray divorce. So it's uh a lot older now. Yeah. It's a big thing now that's people in their fifties and sixties getting divorced.

SPEAKER_06 21:53

Um that's sad.

SPEAKER_05 21:54

It is sad. Um but the idea I mean you you you just look at those things and you're like why? Why? Like what are you asking? What are you chasing?

SPEAKER_03 22:02

What do you want? Well, I feel like a lot of the problems come from people not sitting back and realizing how each other change it is. Like, and especially because a lot of couples don't do date nights.

SPEAKER_06 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

And a l a lot of couples think date nights have to be elaborate.

SPEAKER_06 22:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

But like for y'all, a date was going to the grocery store and sitting at the Starbucks before getting the actual groceries. That was a big deal. So it's just that time that you get to spend together.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Sam's Club Pizza. Yeah, Sam's Club Pizza was for us. But you know what too though, I think a lot of people have a hard time self-reflecting on how the how they have changed. Like sometimes that's not easy to look in the mirror and think, okay, what has changed about me for good and bad?

SPEAKER_06 22:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Like I think that's hard.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

One question I had, and Greg, you mentioned this earlier, and I think it's it's something well worth spending time on. You mentioned having a group of friends around you, the community. You know, but in in my experience and in my opinion, I think that that can be something that is incredibly important and a must-have. But if it's the wrong group of friends, it could also be more detrimental than anything. Yeah. So like in in what ways, you know, I'm I'm listening through this. And if and if you're listening to this as well and you're wrestling through that concept of change, trying to find out what your guideline is, what is your baseline? What are you guiding everything else off on to say, hey, if this one area is the thing that we're talking about, whether I want to change to that or not, and you go talk to your friends, how do you how do you work through that? Does that make any sense? Okay, well, I'll I'll explain. Like I've I've seen some scenarios where like people go and talk to their friends and they'll go get advice from their friends. But when you then ask that person about their friends' relationships, they'll be like, Oh no, I wouldn't want a relationship like that. Like they're toxic in their relationship. But then they'll take the advice of that person and then bring it into their relationship.

SPEAKER_06 24:04

Yeah, here's one thing.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

And I know that's opening a big can of worms, so that could be its own episode in of itself, but I think that's worth mentioning a part of this when we're talking about one.

Seasons Of Life And Saying Yes Again

SPEAKER_05 24:14

I think we should do a whole episode on friends. Like I think it was it's very, very because as you get older, it's extremely important, and we get less and less and less of those uh in our lives. And so I think it's a variety of different friends because what drives me nuts so quickly is to have a bunch of yes men as friends or yes women as friends. So it doesn't matter if you go up to them and you'd be like, you know what? Yeah, I had an affair because he wasn't loving on me and he wouldn't do this, but girl, you just got to find somebody that loves you. Thank thank the Lord. You and it's like we've we if we are surrounding ourselves with people who just tell us what we want to hear, scratch our back when we want to be scratched, uh, but don't ever tell us the truth about situations, are those real friends? Uh you know, or that what's the purpose of that? So for me, I I could I don't want to get into it, but you could dive deep into that idea of saying, if you got people who always tell you what because there's times where you and I have had conversations, I was like, do you want me to do you want me to be honest or do you want me to tell you what you want to hear? Like, what do you think?

SPEAKER_04 25:20

There's been times I've sat you down, and I'm like, Greg, if you tell me what I want to hear, like I'm not here for that right now. Like, you got to be honest in my life because I need growth.

SPEAKER_05 25:27

And there's times where I'm like, bro, that's dumb. What are you doing? Like, stop doing that. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

I think you've had the same conversations with Thomas too.

SPEAKER_05 25:34

Yeah, we've had a lot of those conversations. Yeah, but it's like, and I don't say I've got it figured out because it's so, and we talked about this. We're like, why do we not see the situations uh that we're in?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

And I was like perspective. Awesome. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 25:48

Well, you and I've had conversations where we were, I was talking with a friend of mine, and they were like, hey, I'm you know, talk to my buddies, and they're like, Yeah, first like their first response was divorce. Well, just divorce, go find something better. And I'm like, why, why is that your initial response?

SPEAKER_05 26:02

Because dude, this you're gonna do the same thing over there you're doing right here. You're the exact same thing's gonna happen there that's happening right here.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

I guarantee you. Biggest problem that I've seen with my friends, because like I have friends who are married and I have friends that are single, like, and I'm thankful that I have a broad age group of friends just because of the career that I have. But like all my younger friends who are still single, single, are like, man, you don't need that lever, whatever. Which I've never had that conversation, babe, sitting there across looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

They say it to each other, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

They say it to each other, but then I have the older guys and sitting down and having conversations with dad, too, where it's like, we gotta figure this out. We gotta figure the root of the problem, and we'll go from there. And sometimes the root of that problem is not fun.

Empty Nest, Gray Divorce, And Drift

SPEAKER_05 26:50

No, but that's that self-refrect reflection part that's like it's so and excuse me if if you're this is you and you've used this phrase, you know, the grass is always green on the other side. Do you know why it's greener? Because somebody's fertilizing it, aerating it, cutting it, maintaining it, taking it. They're putting in the work to make it better, and it looks good, but they're working at it. So if you want to have that, work at what you have. Because you're not, you don't get to show up and everything be perfect.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Sometimes the grass on the other side of the wall that you're gonna have to climb over is gonna be just as dead as it was before, and you gotta climb that next time.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

Or it's only a matter of time before it's dead.

SPEAKER_05 27:28

Yeah, yeah, because you're gonna tear your toxic crap over there, you're gonna kill it just like you kill it.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Yeah, you just gotta keep putting in that effort of climbing the wall over and over and over again to where you get to that beautiful, luscious field that everybody wants to have in their yard.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

So how do we but that's not real?

SPEAKER_05 27:44

No. It's just not that's not a real thing. It's like here's here's what kills me because I've been working on um a coaching framework. We've worked on a coaching framework for baggage claim to hopefully roll that out in the next month or so to actually start doing group coaching and around marriage and one-on-one. And it's so incredibly interesting to me how and it hit me because we've been going to the gym, and it is I have not, I'm gonna say, I have not enjoyed the gym the first month, month and a half. And Jess is like, Do you want to go? No, I don't want to go, but I'm going to.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

It's like, well, then get in the car anyway.

SPEAKER_05 28:20

Yeah, I was like, I'm gonna go. Like we went yesterday and you're like, Do you want to go to the gym? No, I don't want to go to the gym, but I'm gonna go because you're going.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Um and I said, I can go when you stay home.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

No, I'm gonna go with you. Yeah, it's like I'm going too. Like, we don't, because I know if I don't, I'm not gonna see results. The same is true in marriage. Like, we expect to go to one marriage conference, to do one workshop, to read one book, and then we're like, oh, man, why is my marriage not? See, my marriage isn't better. This isn't it fixed. Yeah, this is broken. I was like, bro, it's work. You put in the like put in the time. If you're in a relationship and it's just, I'm telling you, we've we've had this conversation with I think every one of our kids. Um, and I was like, uh when they're dating, they're you know, this like, oh, so hard. And I was like, let me tell you, yeah, this is the easiest it's ever going to be. Like, this is the what like you're gonna have the least amount of connections sitting here that you have right now. I was like, because it just gets more complicated. It does.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

There's a lot more stuff that gets thrown in the further that you get. Right.

SPEAKER_05 29:21

And I was like, if you're struggling right now because you went out to eat, just wait.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Just wait a minute.

SPEAKER_05 29:27

Yeah, I was like, maybe you guys need to figure some things out.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:30

And so the whole idea is like, man, what's in me that keeps wanting to just push that and not figure that out? Why is it? Because we're in the cycle, because everything has cycles.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

But that's cycle seasons, whatever you want to call it. That's where the changes come in, is during change is a good thing. It can be, it should be. I mean, well, seasons change.

SPEAKER_05 29:54

We love it. Like right now, dude, I am so looking forward to spring.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Yeah.

Date Nights, Small Rituals, And Awareness

SPEAKER_05 29:58

And then when spring is like awesome, and then when summer gets here, we're gonna be like, yeah, we're at the pool, we're hanging out, music's playing, everything's great. August, it's 185 degrees on the face, and you're just like, please, the air conditioner is about to blow up because it's running so hard. You're like, where's fall? Yeah, I know. I need fall.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

And fall gets here and everything's right in the world, and then you can't. I won't fall to be your round though.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Yeah, I could take your own fall. One thing I think is important to know and understand about change is this, because this is a universal law of change. Um, and I know I say this all the time, Greg, you and I have talked about this. We talked about how many things over the years, but all growth requires change. Meaning you cannot grow unless there's change. But not all change brings forth growth.

SPEAKER_05 30:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

So it's to be intentional that when you change, you're being intentional that that change brings forth growth.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah, I think a lot of people just have the word change is negative, I think, uh for most people, wouldn't you think so?

SPEAKER_05 31:07

I maybe. I think some people are scared of it though. That's yeah, okay, so new because change is something new. There's probably something new. People don't like new things, they like routine, they like the same thing. Yeah, I love I love new things. If every day is a new adventure, I'm like, yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

No, I want to stay in my lane. I want to just everything to just be where I've put it and predictable. And I I don't like change still. I do not.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

I don't think change is a negative thing. I think change is a scary thing. And people don't like to face scary things.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yeah, yeah. It's true.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

I could see that. I'd agree with that. I don't it's it's interesting to me though, because I didn't I don't know what it is in me that enjoys that. Like I enjoy the challenge of I want to do things that a small percentage of the people in the world have done. I just that's just me. It's adventure in it. Yeah, no, I do not like the risk, and they're like, well, that's dangerous. And I'm like, yeah. No, that's the fun part of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

I will go on safe adventures with you, but for me to adventure on my own and try something new and change what I am used to, it that's scary for me.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Huh.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

See, that's what's different though. I like a scary adventure. Like, I want to be to where I'm uncomfortable while we're doing what we're doing, but look at the positive side of it of what's going to come. Oh, you're going to grow from it. Yeah. Like, Dad, we want to do Kilmanjaro. We want to go and climb Kilimanjaro one day, and that's going to be scary while we're doing it. Because somebody out there would like to sponsor us climbing Kilmanjaro.

SPEAKER_05 32:42

I will wear a t-shirt, flag, hat, whatever it is you want. I'll wear it. I'd like to get branded from head to toe with your gear if you want to send me. Um, yeah, I would love to go do that.

Choose Wise Counsel Over Yes-Men

SPEAKER_03 32:54

But it like whenever we hit the part where it's going to be cold, we're going to be in Africa and it's going to be snowing.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

But that's great.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

It'll the adventure that you'll we'll have when we get to the top. And whether we're covered by clouds or we're looking at the planes, it's going to be cool. I'll stay home again. It's going to be one of those things where you get to look back on the journey that you've had through the scary adventure or the scary change and look at how beautiful that change was.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

I mean, that's the story of our life sitting here at this table.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

It's not, it's it's really not about the destination so much.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

No.

SPEAKER_05 33:28

It's the journey along the way.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

It is.

SPEAKER_05 33:30

Um, and you're gonna have to change and not if you keep doing the same thing over and over, you're gonna get the same result. And I'm not using that stupid catchphrase there by uses, but freaking change. If you don't like it, change it. Yeah, if you don't if you don't like who you are, then change who you are. Well, that's something if you don't like the situation, then change it. But you've got to be okay with looking at yourself.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Do those things, but you have to be okay with facing your own self in the mirror. And like you said, ask yourself, why do I keep getting these same results over and over again? And I don't want this result. Well, maybe it's you.

SPEAKER_05 34:03

Yeah. That's hard to face.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

That's hard to face.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

Yeah. I remember someone once told me in a in a just quick passing conversation, but it's crazy because it is stuck with me for years at this point. Um, just in passing, they came up, you know, saying hey as they were passing by and they're like, hey man, how's life? You know, is everything the way you want it to be? And I honestly didn't really know. I'd never been asked that, really. So I didn't know I was like, ah, you know, getting there, you know. I didn't know how to respond. I don't know. I just remember he stopped and he said, Well, if it's not, then make it that way. Because no one's gonna do it for you.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

I know who told you that. And I mean, like I've had that conversation with him too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

So like, look at your marriage, like, is your marriage everything you wanted it to be? Okay, well, if not, then make it that way.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Or to back up is your friend group. Are your friends everything you need them to be for yourself?

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Yeah. And it's simplistic, but the reality is, is it is going to take some changes to make it happen. So, yes, change can be scary and change can be something we don't necessarily want to go after. But at the same time, when we realize what benefits we would reap from certain changes, why would we not make those changes?

SPEAKER_05 35:15

If I've said it once on here, I've said it a hundred times. Everything worthwhile is uphill.

unknown 35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:19

Yeah.

Effort, The Gym Metaphor, And Growth

SPEAKER_05 35:20

Everything worth having is uphill. So that doesn't mean it's easy. No. Yeah. That's just so put in the work, uh, get going, buckle down, be serious about yourself, uh, how you grow, how you change, how you get better in your relationships. That's because change is going to happen. Uh do it together. It's so much more fun to do it together and helpful to have someone uh to do. But we also go back to if you want to have a great relationship, be the healthiest version of yourself you can be. Like know how you think, know how you act, know why you respond to things emotionally, know how you do why you do and don't do things. Know those. Like um, because it makes you a better person to be around. It makes you better in relationships.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

So true.

SPEAKER_05 36:10

Well, as crazy as it is, we're out of time. Do we have an unpack? Do we want to do uh two unpacks? Um, do we have two things that we want to uh to to focus on to unpack for the session? Do we have two?

SPEAKER_02 36:23

I have one.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Okay, you have one. I think I have one too. So if that works out great.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

So I was thinking about like as far as a couple, whether you're married or long term or whatever, and we've said this whole time changes are inevitable. How do you make sure that you change together? Like what are some steps that you can take to make sure that you change together in a way that you're still going on the same direction and it doesn't pull you apart.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Communicate step is communication. Look at that.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

You're saying we're and I know we say that like all the time on this podcast, but also at the same time, like if you can acknowledge change between the two of you, would that not be so much more easy to acknowledge some of the frustrations that are caused between the two of you?

SPEAKER_02 37:13

It's freeing to be able to just say it out loud.

SPEAKER_05 37:17

Yeah. And I think it's for me, I would say in that communication realm, you acknowledge what it was and where you're at. Because if you don't acknowledge, you'd be like, hey, we used to find ourselves like we used to do this all the time. We don't do that anymore. You know why? Why did we quit doing that? Yeah, like what changed?

SPEAKER_06 37:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

And just kind of explore that together because you may have an idea, but it it maybe because I asked you that one time and you go, I don't know, but you stopped doing this. And I was like, No, I didn't, but then I was like, I did. Yeah, I did. I was like, oh my gosh, I don't do that anymore. Uh it's just one of those little things I I used to do that it did make a difference for us. And I was like, okay, I didn't even notice because they're always little subtle changes.

SPEAKER_04 38:02

Oh, they are, they're really subtle along the way. So and that's how people find themselves getting 20 years down the road. That's what I was gonna say. And they don't even recognize who they're married to anymore. And that's why we have the great divorces. We have those when they become empty nesters, you know, after all the kids are gone, they don't recognize each other. Maybe just simply awareness of those changes helps bring you closer together over years and years to come.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

So maybe take some time this week while you're sitting down or or just maybe at night when you're winding down. I don't know where you're at with kids or if you have more time and just say, hey, what's a good what's what's changed? What what is something we used to do together that we love, but what's something we do right now that we love to do?

SPEAKER_02 38:44

I yeah, I would say to make sure when if you haven't addressed it before, to start with some positive change.

SPEAKER_05 38:51

Yes, always start with positive change.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Yeah, because I feel like it would be for all of us because we're human, it'd be really easy to go down the well, you used to and now you don't.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

Don't ever use the word that don't just say it. Don't ever use the word never ever.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Right.

Fear Of Change vs Love Of Adventure

SPEAKER_05 39:06

Or never or ever or always. Like those just they're not true. Yeah. Uh, because nothing is, I mean, the only thing that's always is death. And so it's it's just gonna happen. Like, so it's don't use those words when you're talking about this. So be positive in a sense. This is uh I maybe if you got some some guy friends that you hang out with, or someone say, Hey, what's different about me now than when we first met?

SPEAKER_06 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:31

Tell me something about myself that you think is different. Uh it could be good, bad, and ugly. If it's your friend, let them let them be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:42

I did and I got so into yours that I just forgot what oh. Mine was um I s I sort of got into it on that last one. I think mine is self-reflection. To look at yourself and say, um, write down about yourself just wherever you're at. Maybe take some time in the morning while you're drinking your coffee. Or or maybe even at night you're winding down and say, what are two things about me? Like, if I could have looked at myself five years ago, what would I have told myself now? Like, what are what are what are those two things that I could have looked back five years ago and said, Greg, don't do this or do this? Um, what are those two things? So don't do this and what would you do differently? And so it's something to think about because it's a self-reflection kind of moment that allows you to look at yourself of who you are. Are you growing? Are you changing? Are you just kind of stagnant? You're just sitting in that same spot. Um because growth um is about change. And if you want to change, you gotta grow and there's gotta be movement.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

If you want to dig into that concept of stagnant, like you realize even with like running water, if water grows stagnant, it grows bacteria and grows. And all it does is it just needs movement. All it needs is movement, which is change.

SPEAKER_05 41:03

Yeah, it can't sit in the same environment for too long. Yeah, so it's really interesting. So with all that being said, man, change. It's happening every single day around us to us. Um, we get to be a part of it. We get to choose whether it's a good thing or w whether we won't try to make it a bad thing, but inevitably it's happening. So embrace it, figure out how to do it together.

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Yeah, if you can if and not to say you should control the change, but if you can at least push and guide the change, that's a lot better than being whipped around by it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Yeah, that's true.

Make Life What You Want

SPEAKER_05 41:38

Yeah, very much. And so just engage in the conversation, point out the obvious. Yeah, that's what's that's what's so fun sometimes, is just like even in our 50s, someone asks a question, they go, How do you handle that? And I was like, You point out the awkwardness. Like, bro, isn't this weird? Yeah, and then just move on. Like, just say it sometimes there's there's great freedom in that. So um anything else to add before we wrap up? Sweet. So if you guys have enjoyed uh what you've heard tonight, today, tonight, whatever it is, um hit that hit hit the like button, leave us a review, uh, whatever you're listening on, Spotify, Apple Podcast, and all the other many platforms that we have that you can listen to, um check out our website, unpacktogether.com. You can learn more about us, who we are. Uh just scroll back through other podcasts. Um if you want to know more and you want to help us and help these uh keep going, help the podcast, go to Patreon. Uh you can link to it from our website, unpacktogether.com. Um and so you can just help us out, become a Patreon member, and we're gonna grow that that and just that community. Get to know us a little closer and ask some more questions and get a little deeper involved. So with that being said, thanks for joining us today. Please keep sharing and we'll keep talking and we'll keep uh if there's things that you want us to talk about that we haven't, um email us, DM us, send us a text, and we'll uh tackle that topic as quickly as we can. So uh thank you guys for listening. And um, go down.