You Can Change The Mood By Changing The Frame

The fastest way to turn a normal day into a blowup is to “see” something that isn’t actually there. A cup on the counter becomes disrespect. A missed chore becomes proof they don’t care. A quiet drive home becomes rejection. We’ve all done it, and it’s exactly why we built this conversation around a simple idea: your marriage can be like an optical illusion, where two people stare at the same picture and walk away with totally different conclusions.

We unpack three tools we’re actively working on in our own relationship. First, flip-side reframing: the trait that frustrates you is often the same trait you fell in love with, just showing up in a different context. Then we get painfully practical with the generous assumption rule, because assumptions quietly fuel resentment in marriage communication, blended families, and everyday relationships. Finally, we talk through Dr. John Gottman’s research on the 5-to-1 ratio of positive to negative interactions and why healthy couples don’t “never fight” but instead build enough positive connection to recover well.

We also add an important boundary: reframing is not making excuses for abuse. Safety comes first, period. If you want an easy starting point, we share small habits you can try today, like one sticky note of appreciation a day or a simple journal you pass back and forth to rebuild friendship and intimacy over time. Subscribe for more, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review if Baggage Claim helps you unpack.

Transcript

Welcome To Baggage Claim

greg 0:00

Hey guys, what's up? I'm Greg. I hope you guys are ready to unpack and get into some good conversations today.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast, Baggage Claim. Thank you for joining us.

greg 0:17

What's up, everybody? Welcome to Baggage Claim. This is Jessica's very first time on the podcast. So, hey, if you're if you're new to Baggage Claim, welcome. This is a place where we try to put stuff together. We try to create some community and conversation. We do try. We try to try. We're doing the best we can. But if you call Baggage Claim home, welcome back. Thanks for joining us. Grab your favorite drink, whatever that may be, depends on probably what your day's been. And just pull up to the table with us and jump into some conversation as we get started today. And Baggage Claim. So I want to uh before we get too far into it, I want to uh just thank our sponsors for today and our sponsors for uh and the sponsors are Baggage Claim. So we are sponsoring ourselves through this. The only sponsors is us. The only one is us.

jess 1:10

And so as Baggage Claim brought to you by Baggage Claim.

greg 1:14

And we would like to ask you, Baggage Claim would like to ask you to go to unpacktogether.com, take the audit. It's on the main page there. Take that, it's free. Uh hopefully you find it helpful. Uh Baggage Claim would really appreciate it if you would do that.

jess 1:28

And uh just want to say thank you to our sponsors again for uh giving us the opportunity to see you out there, we see the downloads, we see that we have many, many, many, many listeners, but we want to hear from you. That would be really cool.

greg 1:41

Well, if you take the audit, you're gonna I mean it's all kind of anonymous other than your name and an email.

Michael 1:47

Yeah.

greg 1:47

Uh but you get results back. Um it's very, very helpful. Jump on our socials, follow us on socials. Uh we're trying to post stuff, trying to engage with you guys, uh, reels from this. If you want to see us actually watch us, you can go to YouTube and check out the channel and actually see this show live and in action. There's much I was trying to watch what I said there. But anyway. Yeah.

Optical Illusions And Relationship Blind Spots

greg 2:12

So tonight we're talking about this, the the idea, the concept, uh, comes from we were talking about uh one of these, this picture, like a black and white picture, and it was this it was like an ink block picture, and you look at it, and when you see this picture, you you tend to see different things when you look at it. And so you could see something, you would see something different than I would.

Michael 2:37

Yeah.

greg 2:37

Um, and then they have some that are called stereograms, yes, which are just like a bunch of moving lines and a bunch of stuff, and you look at it. If you stare at it long enough and look away, you'll actually see something hidden in there. Um so we were just talking about it, and I was like, I think those are so cool that our minds would see those. Like, and we're gonna post some of these on our socials that are just kind of fun to do and go, hey, what do you see, or what does your spouse see? Because um we had one a minute ago, you said I see a vase, and I was like, I see two faces staring at each other or vase.

Michael 3:10

It's a v it's vase.

greg 3:12

It's vase. When do you say vase? When it's normal. When it's normal? When it's formal. Formal formal.

jess 3:20

Yeah. Oh, okay.

Michael 3:22

If it's a nice party, it's a vase.

greg 3:23

I'm a very small one. I'm on the kitchen table, it's a vase.

jess 3:26

That's so true.

greg 3:26

I am very formal. When people think of me, they think formal. Yes.

jess 3:31

Or on the flip side, you could see two faces.

greg 3:34

But before we get too far into that, but no, the the idea behind all of that is that our marriages are basically the same way. When we look at those, one couple may you may see something or an issue or a problem, or you may see something in the marriage one way, and the other person sees that same thing, they see it in a com see something completely different. And so this is something that I don't care if you're a blended family, if you're a married couple, if you're just in a relationship, this is something that you deal with constantly on a day-to-day basis. So it's not something that's kind of um new or out there. Like if you're in a relationship, you've dealt with this.

jess 4:15

Yeah, totally. Well, even in a family, like you and I and all of our children, we could look at a picture and we could all, six of us, nine almost I mean, we're we're our family's growing. Like all of us could see something different.

greg 4:29

Yeah, when you look at our boys, you see these sweet little angels. I just see little manipulators that are just saying and doing whatever they need to do.

jess 4:36

And they're two peas in a pot, but they could not be any more different than night and day. Our girls, too. But you know, we could all, like I said, all of us could look at a situation or a team at work. Like it's just according to how you see it.

greg 4:47

So today we're gonna try or tonight, uh, maybe today, I'm not sure. Windows are closed in the year. Uh, we're going to try to lay out three points, three ideas around this concept of looking and seeing the good in something, or seeing um maybe not even just the good, but maybe seeing the truth in it. Like, what is the truth? Uh, because so many times we always want to search for like, well, this is how I feel, this is how it makes me feel, this is what I see, this is how it is. But what's the truth in that, and how do we unpack that, and what does that look like? So, before I get too far down the road, because I just was gonna jump right into it.

Michael 5:29

Questions.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

Miranda, that's you, Miranda. You're just laying over there, literally, Miranda's laying over there, her head back, rubbing her belly. It was a big dinner.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

Yes, it was Miranda's turn to speak, and she's over there rubbing her belly in La La Land or something.

jess 5:48

Okay, Miranda, take it away.

Raccoons Ricky And Real Life Tangents

jess 5:51

Okay. How many raccoons? I can't read this. How many raccoons could you defeat before they realize that you are a threat?

greg 6:02

When we say defeat, can we put some parameters like what does that mean?

jess 6:06

Make them back off. I thought it meant.

Michael 6:09

See, no, I feel like when you're talking about defeat, you have to neutralize it. Like, you gotta neutralize the threat.

jess 6:14

Yeah, till they realize no, we can't win.

Michael 6:17

Okay, till they run away.

jess 6:18

Yeah. Or they realize. You think five or two?

Michael 6:24

Before they realize that's man. I mean, all you gotta do is like roundhouse kick a couple of them to the face. You say them back ten feet.

jess 6:32

There's a raccoon that lives in the woods here at our house. Ricky.

Michael 6:35

Ricky, that's right. If you are you fed Ricky before, we'll okay.

jess 6:38

So for referencing, we'll show you. We have a portrait of Ricky here in the podcast studio. Yeah, he's a very distinguished gentleman. He is a large guy. And um, our garage is not enclosed, it's more like a carport because our front part of our house is built in the 50s, so it's very carport. We use it as another like outside hanging out area. And we were all out there one evening, and I was very close to the half wall where our we feed our cat, Piper.

greg 7:06

And all of a sudden, literally 58 seconds as a Ricky feeding station.

jess 7:11

Yeah. So w I was sitting there, maybe gosh, two feet from the wall.

greg 7:17

Yeah, you're probably three.

jess 7:18

Yeah, super close. Ricky crawls up there and sits down on his little hind feet with his human hands.

greg 7:27

Yeah, we're all out we're all out there listening to music. We're having a drink. So he just owns the place. Yeah, like the music's on, lights are on, yeah.

jess 7:36

We have like party lights out there.

greg 7:38

Yeah, it wasn't like we were sitting in the dark.

jess 7:39

No.

greg 7:40

Like he just walked up right in the middle of the party.

jess 7:42

Picks up two handfuls of cat food and just looks at us like, what? Well, he just eats.

greg 7:47

Yeah, he's eating, and then he he there was a bowl of water that for Piper, he rinses his hands off in the water and then eats more. And he's just hanging out looking at it. Like he's big. Like I went in one time and I yelled at him, opened the door and was like, Ricky.

Michael 8:00

And he drops the bowl.

greg 8:03

And literally stops and looks at me, like takes a step toward me. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. He's like button up. Yeah, he's just like, You want something? And I was like, No, I'm good, man. Like I literally stepped back inside the door.

Michael 8:15

So for Greg, the answer is none. I think one. I think one.

jess 8:20

I won't go toe-to-toe with Ricky because I've seen him blow up.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

Oh, he's got two little buttons that have been hanging out.

jess 8:26

He does. He has two new friends. Oh, I've not met his new friends. Yeah, well, they're smaller. They're way scared. Smaller and they're scared still. They're his kids.

greg 8:33

I don't know. It could be his step kids.

jess 8:36

Could be. Could be.

greg 8:39

Glad to see.

jess 8:40

So um I I might I might could take on Ricky and one of his partners, maybe.

greg 8:47

Yeah, I would think two at the most.

Michael 8:49

Yeah. Because they're pretty smart. See, if I had a method of defense, may it be a baseball bat, a two by four. Like I feel like I could handle myself pretty well.

jess 9:01

Well, we didn't even say can you have a sorry.

greg 9:10

Still, we're 68 episodes in. 68, and we just ran out of storage on our phone, which we were recording with. Hey, hand it to me.

jess 9:16

That's cool.

greg 9:18

Look at that.

jess 9:19

Everything's fine.

greg 9:20

Yeah, so let's keep talking.

jess 9:23

So yeah, but we didn't talk about if you could have weapons. There was no specifications.

Michael 9:27

That's true.

jess 9:28

It's just could you defeat?

Michael 9:30

I mean, I feel like I could kick out a few raccoons to make them back off.

jess 9:35

I might could take Ricky and a partner.

Michael 9:37

No, I'm not saying I wouldn't get like scratched up or hurt. But I could still uh you think so? I feel like I couldn't. I mean, a raccoon's like a little cat. A big cat, rather. Not a little cat, a big cat.

jess 9:52

With ten fingers and ten toes. Like they have like people hands.

Michael 9:57

Yeah, I know. Yeah, they're there.

jess 9:59

That changes it though. Well, they're people.

Michael 10:01

I mean, it's not like they're coming out with a glock.

jess 10:03

Like, no, but they've got they have ten fingers and ten toes, and they have claws, they have sharp teeth.

Michael 10:08

Like, and then Yeah, but if your foot is directly in their chest and they're being sent back like 15 feet.

jess 10:14

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Michael 10:16

I'd like to think. I I will say I have never taken on like a herd of raccoons before.

jess 10:22

So I Well, are they rabid? Do they have rabies? That was not supposed to be.

Michael 10:27

Ooh, if it is a herd of raccoons attacking, I would probably hide because I don't want rabies.

jess 10:32

I would want to defeat zero.

Michael 10:35

Everybody wants rabies. Myth. For all my office fans out there, three people every year die from rabies. Fact, four people every year die from rabies. Let's try it again. So um if they have rabies.

jess 10:51

Oh yeah.

greg 10:52

So here we are.

jess 10:53

Here we are.

greg 10:54

We've lost video part way through.

Michael 10:59

You're recording the wrong way, Miranda. She's over here taking a selfie of herself. Just watching Miranda right now. She just, it's a man.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

This is our life. It really is. We're not like we're not one of those honey.

jess 11:13

This is why we are our our own sponsors. Yes.

greg 11:16

This is why we're our own sponsors right now.

Michael 11:18

If you would love to be a part of this podcast to sponsor us, we can actually get cameras. Yeah. We need to get an actual camera.

jess 11:28

Yeah.

unknown 11:28

That's good.

Michael 11:29

All right.

jess 11:29

All right, we're gonna do it.

Michael 11:30

Let's try this again now. A plus job for Miranda. Woo!

unknown 11:33

Woo!

greg 11:34

All right. Well, this is I feel like this is like that backyard wrestling. I don't know if you ever used to see that back in the day. Um this is before y'all's time. Like people just set up a ring in their backyard and they would videotape and you could get VHS tapes of them wrestling in the backyard. That sounds awesome. It's pretty interesting. I mean, there's some yeah. All right, anyway. Good Lord.

jess 11:58

So we are so here we go.

Why Couples See The Same Thing Differently

greg 12:01

So can we talk about if you're if you're out there and you're like, bro, I my marriage is perfect, my marriage is great, uh, I got we got everything together, everything is hitting on. I I would love for you to reach out to us because a podcast, or we'll do it through Zoom because I'd love to hear. But for most of us, even us, we've been at this for a little while. We're still trying to figure this out, and there's times where we hit speed bumps, we hit potholes, and we're just trying to figure it out as we go. And this is one of those things that we run into a lot. Um, because there's so many variables that have to do with this going well or not. So let's jump right into our three our our three parts. Do you want to do you want to introduce kind of the first one?

jess 12:51

Um, there was when we were talking about this earlier, and we we like to do some research, so we sound smart sometimes.

greg 12:57

No, okay.

jess 12:59

I was gonna talk about the first point.

Michael 13:00

I know you are. That's we do research because we are smart.

jess 13:05

Yes, not to sound smart. I will maybe I don't want to take it away.

SPEAKER_05 13:13

Go ahead.

Michael 13:14

Go for it.

Flip-Side Reframing The Trait You Hate

jess 13:15

We ran across something called flip side reframe re flip side reframing. And it was a very interesting way to look at things. Um basically, um, when you're looking at one, like you brought up those stereographs earlier, stereogram or whatever it was called. Some one person might see what is framed in the the dark part, or if you're a photographer like Miranda, you would call that the negative part of the photo, while the other person might see the lighter part and pick out like if it's a vase in the middle, or if you look if if it's the white part you're looking at, or if it's the dark part on the outside, it's two faces looking at each other. You're looking at the same thing, but you might see two totally different things. And that's just kind of the same way with a relationship as well.

greg 14:06

What do you mean by that? Tell me, what do you Okay?

jess 14:09

So here's a personal example.

greg 14:12

Okay.

jess 14:13

So big surprise, you might you not you personally, but people that know me might describe me as anxious, a worrier, or on the other side of that, that means I really care deeply.

greg 14:29

So, but but you are not to say somebody who would, you are anxious. You are a worrier. Like those aren't things people just say about you. Like people say I'm a jerk, and I may be from time to time, but like in all reality, like you you are anxious about lie. That's a struggle for you.

jess 14:46

It is, and worry. Anxious and worry, hand in hand for me.

Michael 14:48

Okay. Well, I think one thing that when looking at this study that really made a difference for me when reading it was the negative friction that we find in our relationships are usually the counterpart of the positive attraction you have in a person. Yes.

jess 15:08

Okay.

Michael 15:09

So if you want to take it light side versus dark side, so for someone who seems stubborn, unyielding, that's a friction that can create negative issues. But on the other end, the positive side of that is they're principled. Fiercely dedicated, strong-minded, able to follow through, able to continue. So, like for me, even yes, within a relationship, it's important to understand these differences. But for me, it's like, okay, if I'm sitting here and I know that I like someone who's principled, I like someone who's um uh motivated, strong-willed, able to follow through, able to do these things. Okay, well, that person, the friction, the negative side of that is that person also might be stubborn. Yeah, that person all might also might be unyielding in arguments and debates and how we should do things one way or the other.

greg 16:00

So yeah, there's people like if you have people like I love the leadership style, I love that they lead that that they lead our family or they lead those things. Most of the time, leaders are pretty independent. Yeah, like they're kind of to themselves a lot. Sometimes they're not um like when they're to themselves, sometimes they're you you don't know what they're thinking all the time. So I'm not saying they're bad communicators, sometimes you just don't express those things.

jess 16:25

But it's and sometimes they hard have a hard time receiving a different point of view or feedback that doesn't always agree with where they're at.

Michael 16:35

Yeah, correct. Well, and even just to continue on, like with different, you know, characteristic traits or personalities. You know, if you love someone who's creative, who's relaxed, who's chill, spontaneous, okay. Well, the realism is like that person also might be unorganized. That person might not be as clean and tidy in their house as you may want them to be, right? Because it's the same character trait.

jess 16:59

It is.

Michael 16:59

It's just the pros and the cons of that character trait.

jess 17:01

Or I was just lived out.

Michael 17:03

Yes, exactly. Um, and even going on to what you were saying, someone who cares deeply, who who has a a nurturing um or a very highly observant person in your life, well, that person also might have anxiety.

greg 17:17

See what's interesting about all of these though, and when we say this is the flip side or reframing, um, I think the reframing is the the part that we find ourselves in once we've been in the relationship. Like sorry, initially we're attracted to those things in someone because you're in that in-love stage and everything's perfect, they can do no wrong. Like, oh my gosh, I love these things about them. But then once you're a few years in or you're into that relationship and everything feels comfortable, then you start looking, you stop seeing those positives and you start seeing the negative side, but you want to take that negative and you want to change that. That becomes a thing that we always want to change in someone. Because that that other side, well, they're just so messy. Like I just want them to pick up after themselves. And it's like, but they're also highly creative and they get a lot done, but they've always been messy. Like they've never, they've never not been messy, you just now started noticing it. Yeah, so it's like how, and so what we do is we've worked so hard on looking at that negative side of trying to fix that, as opposed to saying why why not let's just emphasize the good thing? Like, how do we do but how do why how what does that look like? How do you do that? How do you reframe that thought process when you're in that in a day-to-day kind of situation?

Michael 18:36

Well, for me, it's it's the same person, it's two sides of the same coin, correct? Right? So if you were, and don't get me wrong, like I understand there's frustrations in these negative sides, but the reality is like you gotta take the good with the bad, or the bad with the good, however you say that. Either way, but I think it's the same, literally. Well, yeah, that literally proves the point of what we're talking about. Like, um, you know, if you do find attractive in the person who's creative, who's super chill, who's spontaneous, who's, you know, relaxed all the time, easy to be around, easy go lucky, that kind of person. Well, you how are you supposed to love that side of a person but then get mad at that when they do it the same, they're doing the exact same thing, but just in a different area of life. Because reality is a person themselves aren't changing. Right. They're just treating that area of life the same way they do everywhere else. Right. So almost to get mad at that is to be mad at the person for being themselves. Yeah.

greg 19:39

Yeah. Because also, too, I think we see like we see the the good. Like we look at couples in the framework of what they do for a living or their job, and they're giving their best to that, but you're not always getting their best. No. Like when they come home, they're not their best. Um, and you can't you can't really expect that to be uh, you know, it's like I can't be on 24-7 all the time. Yeah, there has to be some kind of lenience there a little bit to think. Because I see Jess, if she goes to work and she's with first graders all day and she's go, go, go, go, and then she's all interactive, then she comes home and says, I just want to sit on the couch, I don't really want to talk to anybody.

jess 20:19

I just want to be quiet for a little while. I used up all my words today.

greg 20:24

Yeah, so you can I mean you can look at those things and be frustrated, but it's like trying to figure out how to reframe that in a way that's helpful because it is the same person.

jess 20:33

Also at the same time, that doesn't give me a free pass to be like, you said I've I've been go, go, go, go all day, and I get home and I don't want to talk to anybody. That's not my free pass to be a jerk.

greg 20:44

No, but I think we use it as our free pass. I think a lot of us use it as I've had a hard day at work, it's been stressful, it's been there's a lot going on. Um, and we use that a lot as opposed to just let's just address the issue and just like, hey, I need some time.

Michael 20:59

Yeah.

greg 21:00

Or it's like, hey, can I have can I have 10 minutes?

jess 21:02

Can I just get some 10 minutes and just kind of those are the days when I'm thankful it takes me a little bit longer to get home according to what time it is. It's like I need I need a little bit more time to just decompress, then I'll be ready to go. Just give me a little bit.

greg 21:14

Because when your emotions are all heightened and you're all in the situation, it's really, really hard to see the flip side of that. Like it's hard to see that flip side. You just your emotions are telling you completely different thoughts and ideas, and then you start going down this rabbit hole and spiraling about they don't even pick up their clothes because they hate me. They don't even want to be here. Why are they even why do they even love me? Yeah like they don't love me. When's the last time they said I love me? And then all of a sudden you're you know, you're packing your clothes if you're if you're not careful. It's like that's the ridiculous spiral that our mind goes in to just say, No, no, no, wait a minute. Like, let's just let's let's figure out what the truth is here and this this frame around that.

Michael 21:57

Well and not to jump the gun, but Also, at the same time, when we come up to stuff like that, we always in the negatives, we always assume the worst more than we ever do in the positives.

greg 22:10

Which is great you say that, Michael, because it leads us to point

The Generous Assumption Rule

greg 22:13

number two. Boom. And point number two is the generous assumption rule. I call it the big ass rule.

Michael 22:20

Oh my god.

greg 22:21

Because that's usually what it makes out of you.

jess 22:25

When you assume?

greg 22:26

Yeah, when you make those assumptions. This is one thing that I don't care if you're in a relationship or not. You make general assumptions about everything in life. Like we do it. We have a stupid game that we play sometimes. Like we're just talking about the poor girl Chili's. She got an order wrong. She made the assumption that we were going to be really upset about it.

jess 22:49

Yeah.

greg 22:49

And so she was very nervous. I mean, she might probably have been 1920 and her little hands were shaking and she was so worried and just And there was a lot of people who would have been upset and mad and frustrated and would have been a jerk to this poor little girl who's just trying to do her job.

jess 23:03

Yeah, we're just like, no, I feel like we were just like, I think maybe you just misunderstood what we said. It's okay. What what can we do to fix it? Like we worked with her.

greg 23:11

But she we made all these assumptions about this poor girl. Um even us. They weren't bad assumptions, but we made assumptions about her. And she probably made boatloads of assumptions about us.

jess 23:23

Until we proved her wrong, we were all very kind to her. Yeah.

greg 23:26

And we tipped her well. Tipped her greatly. And so it's just that that thing is it's in our everyday lives. And this is one of those things. If we can get this under control, not just in our relationships, but just not in our marriage relationships, but just in every relationship. This makes a huge, huge difference. Um for instance, Miranda makes the assumption that everyone hates her every time she talks. Am I right?

unknown 23:52

Yeah.

greg 23:52

Yeah. So if I say something to Miranda, I know I have to be very careful in how I use my words because Miranda's her filter is I've done something wrong and everybody's mad at me. And you're just, you want to be even if she just got here. Yeah, and it's like, you just yeah, you just walked in the door. Like, um, but that's you know, those are those are the assumptions that we just have that we run through.

jess 24:17

Um I was thinking in my head a little bit ago when we were talking about my anxious and worrying point of view. It could be like you and I, Miranda, we have a very close relationship, I would think, with daughter-in-law and mother-in-law. We're more like best friends. And we text 9,000 times a day. And if you didn't have the filter or the assumption that me texting you or you tell if we didn't have this about each other, the assumption of we just care. Like just in general, I just care about what you're doing. You would feel like or I could feel like we're hovering.

Michael 24:50

Yeah.

jess 24:51

And it may feel that way as a mother-in-law, daughter-in-law sometimes, but for me like you hover. I probably do.

greg 24:58

Over me. Oh, yeah. I hover you. Yeah.

jess 25:00

Well, no. I don't mean it to be that. I just genuinely care. But if you don't give me the benefit of the doubt, or you know, this assumption rule, and if you or if you look at it, or you, I hover you, Greg. I know I do. But like if y'all don't look at it through a I really just care that much with my whole heart. If you didn't look at it that way, you could assume, like, oh my God, leave me alone.

greg 25:25

Yeah, you could. Yeah, sure. I think it's like to put it in practical terms, um, when there's dishes in the dishwasher are in the sink, I can make the assumption that, hey, you see those that are in there, why would you not put those in the dishwasher? I can make the assumption of, hey, there's dishes in the dishwasher to clean, why would you not unload that dishwasher? Like, I can make that assumption as opposed to saying, hey, do you mind unloading the dishwasher? Or do you mind loading the sink? Or do you mind putting those in the dishwasher? And it may be like uh, well, I did it last time. And that's a whole story for another time.

jess 26:02

We've never said that to each other.

greg 26:04

Of keeping score.

jess 26:05

Yeah.

greg 26:06

Because that, I mean, there's just there's so much to that.

jess 26:09

Yeah. Um Most of the time for me, I'm like, oh gosh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, let's jump on that. Like it's never a I'm being ugly and I just don't want to help.

greg 26:17

Yeah, there's only and we've talked about this, there's only a few assumptions that are just talked about and and and done here. Like, I assume and no, Jess is never going to touch the lawnmower, the weed eater, or the blower.

jess 26:29

Right.

greg 26:30

Or the hedge trimmers.

jess 26:31

Never.

greg 26:31

Thank God. Um, and I'm never going to wash clothes.

jess 26:34

No.

greg 26:35

Unless it's a dire need.

jess 26:38

Or I ask you to put something in the dryer just because I forgot before I was. I had to go, I gave you step-by-step instruction.

greg 26:46

Yeah, I was like, I don't even know where to put the things at. Like, what I put in the phone. It's okay.

jess 26:49

I got you.

greg 26:49

And so those are those are broad, general assumptions, but we do that all the time. Like uh instead of just voicing those assumptions out loud. And I mean, we just it's just part of our lives, and we just we're prone to see negative, not positive.

jess 27:07

In the world, too, not just in our homes or our relationships. Like in the world, there are so many negative assumptions made about people on a daily basis, and you see it in the media, it's everywhere.

Michael 27:19

Yeah.

jess 27:19

It's like, can we not just remember that we are all people and we're just all trying to live a life?

greg 27:24

Yeah. Let's make assumptions and assume the best of someone.

jess 27:27

Yeah.

greg 27:28

How crazy is that? I mean, that's a crazy thought.

Michael 27:30

Yeah. Well, and I remember in one work environment, that was you know, one of the best ones I've ever worked in. I just remember my boss would always say, like, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. Because it's so easy to assume the worst. I'm not gonna assume the worst. If there's an issue, let's talk, we'll communicate. But until something's confirmed that it's a bad situation or worse than what we would think, like I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a chance to explain. Like, talk to it. Right. Which makes all the difference in the world. First off, just with nerves in the work environment. I mean, just imagine in a relationship, if you're constantly tiptoeing because you think someone else is always assuming the worst of you, you can live such a more healthy or relaxed life, knowing that hey, we're gonna give each other the benefit of the doubt. Yeah.

jess 28:21

I mean, and this in lots of past episodes, and especially the wife point of view episodes, and when you learn when you know my story is that is something I will preach, yell, teach, whatever, till I have no breath left in my lungs. Stop looking at everything in such a negative point of view at your husband. Like when you do that, when you stop looking for everything that's negative, or you stop making a big deal out of things that are just not, it changes everything.

greg 28:54

Yeah.

jess 28:55

It changes literally everything.

greg 28:58

Yeah.

jess 29:02

No, imagine if you did that for each other and you started looking at each other of like, oh, well, you know, like you you said, you know, she didn't load the dishwasher this morning, even though I know the dishwasher's empty. Okay, well, no, I didn't. I didn't do it because I'm being mean to you. I just did it cause I didn't do it because I didn't think about it. Or, you know, he didn't put his water bottle in the sink. Or it's like just minuscule things that turn into all these really big things are just really not. Yeah.

greg 29:28

Well, it's because we read into them.

jess 29:30

Yeah. Or you could think, well, because I know not that you leave your water, you don't we don't have water bottles everywhere in our house.

greg 29:36

I like water.

jess 29:37

You have heard time drinking water.

unknown 29:38

I do.

jess 29:39

But like for me, if you were that type of man that left water bottles everywhere, I would I could be like, Why are you lazy? Why are you this and that and the other? Or I know that you have a very creative mind. Your mind is always busy and you're always thinking about something or working on something. And that just means, oh, he just sat that down because his brain was already five steps ahead on what his next project was about to be. Not because he had a negative thought, or I'm just gonna leave this here and she can just deal with it. Like it's it's all about just frame of mind.

Michael 30:08

Well, and that changes your perspective of that person's character in so many ways.

jess 30:13

Oh, yeah.

Michael 30:14

Because that will start filtering into other aspects of your relationship as well.

jess 30:18

It sure will.

Michael 30:18

You know, if you're sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, he left that cup on the counter because he just thinks it's a woman's job, or he just thinks I should take care of it. He thinks he's better than that. Okay, well, that's gonna start filtering into everything else.

jess 30:30

Everything else.

Michael 30:32

Now you're, you know, driving to work and thinking of something completely different, and you're like, oh, well, yeah, no, that's right, because he's just selfish. That's just his own fault. Well, that that was all based off of your own assumptions anyway.

jess 30:43

Yeah, and like you said when we first started this episode, like think about whenever you were in love and falling in love, and they could do no wrong, and all these things that you just loved about them, strong character or super loving or super compassionate, or whatever those character traits might have been. Well, later on down the line, if you're not careful and you don't keep that frame of reference where it's at, it could turn to that dark side of what we were just talking about. If you're not careful to remember, no, those are not bad things. It's just two sides of the same coin, really.

greg 31:17

I love uh uh I don't love it, but I find it interesting when you have couples who are frustrated and they go, Yeah, but he's not the same guy that I married. Well, I hate to tell you you're not the same woman you married either. Like this is a choice where you get to choose to love each other in these different seasons. You get to choose to embrace these these new things in life. Like it's just called life. And it has journeys and it has valleys and hills. So assumptions, I mean well, benefit of the doubt. Yeah.

Michael 31:44

Absolutely. And to add to that what you were saying, like, oh, this person's not the same person. The realities were all changing. Yeah. And this is what's so crucial to uh, I don't know if you want to say, like, keep a finger on the pulse in your relationship to understand where you are to track where you're what you're going through. I'm not gonna be the same person 10 years from now that I am today.

jess 32:04

Yeah, I'm not.

greg 32:06

Well, I don't want Jess to be the 21-year-old she was when we first started dating.

jess 32:09

I wasn't 21. Thank you. But thank you. I appreciate that.

greg 32:14

Oh, it's not like we're different people then. This is like we're we're not the same people we are then.

jess 32:19

We've lived a lot of life in 14 years, and if you are the same people, that means you haven't matured or grown through or learned anything through what life has dealt you.

Michael 32:30

Yeah. Well, and I was talking to someone about this the other day, and we were talking about how people change and you know how scary that is. And I was like, it's actually it's not that scary when you think about being a couple because when you get married, you you become one. You live life together as one unit. So therefore, when change occurs, you change together. Well, hopefully, so that 10 years from now, well, no, that's what you should focus towards is to change together. That way, 10 years from now, even though yes, both of you have changed drastically, you've not changed apart and in separate ways, you have changed down the road of life together so that 10 years from now you're both still in that same place. Yeah.

greg 33:14

So we've talked about reframing, we've talked about assumptions. What's our third one? Do we remember our third, our third room?

The 5 To 1 Positivity Ratio

Michael 33:21

It's the ratios.

jess 33:22

Oh, the ratios, yeah.

Michael 33:24

So explain that, Michael? So yeah, there's a uh psychologist, whatever uh marriage psychologist, uh Dr. John Gottman, who did a did some research on healthy relationships, unhealthy relationships, what were the differences? And it wasn't, yeah, thanks, John. Uh it wasn't that healthy relationships never had arguments. It wasn't that healthy relationships didn't have negative frictions, like all the things we're talking about. The difference was the ratio of positive interaction versus negative. So, say there is a negative friction and it blows up and there's this big ordeal, right? So, how many positive interactions do you have compared to that one negative? And what he says is, and it's not that you're trying to mathematically calculate all this out every day, but he says you need to have five to one for every one negative interaction that you have, you should have five positive. Um, and he kind of puts it in this way to say, okay, yeah, you're not calculating, you're not keeping tally, you're not marking scores, you're not doing any of this. But if you notice you have a negative interaction, be the one who initiates the positives. Just do it.

jess 34:42

I'll say, as an educator, though, I mean, I just thought of this when we you were explaining it. This is something that we talk about a lot as educators, because when you have five negative interactions with kids, with your students, no matter how old they are, it takes a lot more than one positive to rebuild that um in that environment. So imagine how hard it is to work on that in your own home.

greg 35:07

And this is one of those things though, like it this is just kind of a gut check feeling. Like you know if you've had more positive interactions than negative. You just kind of know. Like it's not, you don't have to keep score. It's like no, like it you're either you either are or you aren't. Like you're either focusing on when you make those assumptions, you focus on the negative, you're gonna have five negatives to one positive because that's just your natural bent. You're gonna have to reframe, get rid of some of those assumptions to before you can get to this five-to-one rule to go, we need more positive interactions before we s we have the negatives. And so it's just a but also too, there's so many factors that go into this as far as man, somebody may have been sick in the house for like say you're sick for um the last six days and you've just been laid up or you go home from work and you're gonna be able to do it.

jess 35:58

But you and I both have been.

greg 36:00

We but I'm saying if I'm just and I'm finishing and I'm doing and I'm doing a lot of things around the house, and I'm doing more, there's a part of me that I could get upset because I'm just like, I'm just frustrated or mad because I'm doing everything here. And so we allow that to be a part of it, and we're just we find our our interactions aren't so positive because the circumstances aren't the same.

Michael 36:23

Yeah.

greg 36:24

You know, sometimes there's seasons where couples, one couple works more, one spouse will work more than the other. They have a project coming up. You have to keep all this in mind at the same time of doing life, of that, but let's just be positive. Like we're never gonna go wrong with just lifting each other up and being positive. Each other. That's I think that's if I can give you to make one assumption, make that assumption in your marriage. Just be positive and lift them up, encourage them, be the biggest cheerleader. But I think who's gonna say no to that? I mean, I I'm not.

jess 36:54

No. Um I mean, I remember during my grief journey on the probably second half of it, I was accused of being a silver lining girl. Um, like as if that was negative. And I thought Interesting. Yeah. Like you just always see the silver lining. How like how are you ignoring all this other stuff? I'm like, I'm not ignoring it. I'm dealing with it, I'm carrying it, I'm you know, working through it, but why would I not want to be a silver lining girl? Why would I not want to try to see the best in every situation? Learn that from my grandmother. Um, why would I not want to see a positive versus a negative? And so, I mean, there was a long time there where I had to retrain my thinking on my own for myself. Um, not, I mean, it was before I even met you. So I feel like that was a good point of view to bring into our marriage. But in general, you as a person, it doesn't even have to be just because you're married or in your relationship or you're doing that for your spouse. Do it for yourself. Yeah, it will change your outlook on everything. It certainly did mine. Yeah, it truly did.

greg 38:00

Yeah, 100%. So, anything you have to add to the five to one ratio?

jess 38:06

I don't think so.

Michael 38:08

I would say this. Okay. That is a lot easier said than done.

jess 38:13

Oh, yeah.

Michael 38:15

Because some of the things that are obstacles in our way, pride is definitely a big one. Because if you have an ever if you have a negative interaction, typically you have more angst, frustration, things coming on in your heart and your spirit. Um and it takes everything against our nature to turn to be positive. Right.

jess 38:41

It is against your nature to be positive.

Michael 38:43

It is. And so in that way, it's like anything else. You gotta start somewhere. And if it's hard for you, like if you're listening to this and and you're like, man, it's so hard. You know, I just see so many negatives or so many things that are creating that tension or that frustration of neck negativity for me, I would say just pick one thing, even if it's the smallest, smallest of things.

Safety Boundaries And Small Steps Forward

greg 39:06

Yeah, can we can we I want to put this caveat out there because we talked about it before, but we haven't said this. Like if you're in a relationship and it's like an abusive relationship, like like emotionally abusive or physically abusive, we're not talking about reframing and making assumptions, those things. No, we're not. That's not it at all. That's a completely different conversation.

jess 39:28

If you're not emotionally or physically safe, this is not a conversation about it.

greg 39:32

That's a get out and get somewhere safe, period. Yes. Hands down. There's no no questions around that. Uh so that's not, I don't want you to, if you're listening to this thinking you're in one of those really dysfunctional relationships where you feel like that's normal. Yeah.

jess 39:45

There's a difference between making excuses versus looking at things in a positive manner. Those are two different things. Yes.

Michael 39:51

Abuse is not acceptable. No. Correct. Yes. That that does not apply to these.

greg 39:56

There's no reason to anyone should be laying hands on anyone else. Yes. Unless it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Did we really just do the at the same time? I'm sorry. We can't it's marriage. Can we not talk about marriage like that? We can, but we lay them hands.

jess 40:13

Oh my gosh.

unknown 40:14

Yeah.

greg 40:18

So I I want us to make sure, though, because I think women tend to want to make excuses and they well, he loves me.

jess 40:27

Well, some men too, that's less talked about. But yeah, mostly it's yes.

greg 40:32

But like someone who hits you, that's it, that's another one or it's verbally abusive to you, emotionally abusive to you.

jess 40:37

That's a different story. That's not what we're talking about. Yeah. We're not making excuses for bad behavior.

greg 40:41

No, not at all.

jess 40:42

No.

greg 40:43

So all those being said, yes. Let's unpack. Let's jump into it. We're gonna I agree with you, Michael. This is not a it's we talk about things on here. I want you to understand when we talk about things on bag screams, it's not like a we've got this figured out, go do this one, two, three thing and you're done. This is a process. We're in a marathon, we're not sprinting here. These are things we still struggle with.

Michael 41:04

Yeah, we're working on. Like it's not. We're literally working on this. Oh, well, we say all this because we're perfect and we do this all the time. We take our own advice. Honestly. Yes.

jess 41:13

We do quote each other to each other. We all do.

greg 41:17

Yes. All the time. So hey, you need to listen to episode 45. Remember what you said? Yeah. So it's a it this is a process. So we're I'm a big proponent of don't the goals are good, things are good. Don't be too ambitious.

Michael 41:34

Take small steps.

greg 41:36

Let's do a small step in the right direction, and then let's build on that. Like, but let's start with a small step and go that way. And then when we get to a small step, we'll move next to next from that point on. So reframe, what's this a good what's a good first step for unpack on a reframe?

jess 41:52

I mean, what I mentioned earlier about being a silver lining person, that's not um being silly or immature or, you know, have your eyes covered or those kinds of things. It's literally a choice to look for the good. Um just a little bit of touching on my backstory when I was in my grief journey. Somebody gave me a book, and I've mentioned this before. Um, it's a book by Ann Voskamp, and it's called 1000 Gifts. And it's literally just her. She had gone through a traumatic experience in her life. And it was just uh it was a book of with her just literally naming the gifts that she could identify in her life. And she was not at a place where she wanted to do that. Um, and neither was I at that time. Um, but it was simple, simple things like I got to hear a bluebird chirp when I walked outside today, like very simple things, and they built and it got to be more of a thing. It was a very she uses a lot of creative, flowery language here and there, like just beautiful words that are really deep. Um, but it really helped change my point of view to how I looked at things, everything. And so just for my own self, even like way before I met you. And so I think for your own good, and it it will trickle into your relationship too, but for your own good, do that for yourself, and it will help you see your whole world in a new way. If you reframe your just try to find a silver lining, and you don't have to wait till there's a thunderstorm to do that. Like you can do that just in general. Look for good.

greg 43:34

Yeah, don't wait till the wheels fall off. My suggestion is um Lucy just reminded me the other day she came in with a pack of the little yellow sticky notes, and she I would tear them off, and she wanted me to stick them on her.

Michael 43:46

Yes.

greg 43:47

Um get you a pack of those, the little sticky notes. They're I mean, just a couple dollars. And my my thing is is one day, one thing a day. That's all you gotta do. Write something you love about that person that you're living with. It's in the house with you, and just leave it somewhere. Could be on the mirror, could be on the fridge, could be on the stove. Wherever it is, leave that one thing, just one a day. Just put that sticky on there, sticky it, and just walk away. You don't have to don't give an excuse, don't say anything about it.

Michael 44:17

Yeah.

greg 44:18

Just one a day and just watch out bills. And if it's hard for you to think of one thing that you love about them, man, then when you get in your car, don't listen to the radio or don't listen to a podcast and just think about that person.

jess 44:32

We were really good at that when we first got married. You would write notes on my mirror in the bathroom, and I would hide notes for you, like in your truck or in your work, like your briefcase and things like that.

greg 44:41

Yeah.

jess 44:41

We were really good at that.

greg 44:42

Yeah, we're not we're not as good at that anymore.

jess 44:44

We're not.

greg 44:45

So that's my that's my unpack because that that small little thing, well, one, it'll help you reframe you're not seeing the good, you're you're not seeing the bad, you're seeing the good. And it helps with that five to one ratio. You're building into the five, not the one. And so that's my kind of unpack. It's very simple, very easy. And if you say you don't have time for that, that's BS. Make time for it. If you if you're it's a marriage, your marriage is worth it.

jess 45:10

So it shouldn't require extra time, it just changes the way you think.

Michael 45:13

Right. Anything else? One uh one spin-off of basically what you just said um is something that I've seen done before. Is uh basically you get a journal and you journal, and my brother had done this before, it's where I heard it from. And uh, you know, if he got it, he would write something in the page about his wife, what he loved about her, and then he'd put it on her bedside table. And then when she got it, she would write something. And I mean, it may take a day, it may take a couple days. You know, you write something back, and then you put it on the other person's bedside table, and then it just goes back and forth. And then at the end of the year, whether it be an anniversary, you just get together and you read it. You know, it's a great way to be able to do exactly what you said, but also be able to capture those memories, yeah, capture those moments. Because the reality is hard times coming. Yeah, hard times are coming. Like crap's gonna hit the fan at some point, yeah, yeah, and you're gonna forget all those good things. Yeah, that's so true.

greg 46:10

So true. Well, I think that's

Closing Challenges And Go Dogs

greg 46:14

about it. I'd again I'd like to thank our sponsors, Baggage Claim, for tonight's episode.

Michael 46:19

Uh you've not heard of baggage claims.

greg 46:21

Allowing us to be uh allowing us to do baggage claims. So again, if you've listened this far, like, subscribe, share. Uh, please do all those things. Um, go to unpacktogether.com, take that um audit, kind of see where you're at. It's just three three areas. It's pretty simple. It's you, uh, the couples, it's us, and then it's family. And it's just those three. It doesn't take long. I think it's 25 questions, 27 questions. 25, 27. Close. Yeah, so it doesn't just take a few minutes. Great, great material, just gives you a good starting point to know where to work from. It's free. Something we want to do to help you. Um, but thank you so much for listening. Um, I hope you come back and join. Please like, share, subscribe, all those fun things.

jess 47:03

Tell all your friends.

greg 47:04

Yeah, tell your friends. And uh anything else? Hey, how about them dogs making the World Series? What?

Michael 47:10

Did you see that walk up Homer?

greg 47:12

Yes. Yes.

Michael 47:13

Or was it Walk Up Homer?

greg 47:14

It was winning on the state.

jess 47:17

We're going to the final.

greg 47:20

The diamond dogs are moving. We're going to the World Series. For the first time since what did I think it's been uh it's been a while.

jess 47:27

Like 20 years or something ridiculous. Our son-in-law said the other day.

Michael 47:30

We have to get together and watch that world series together.

jess 47:32

Yeah, it'd be fun. Yeah.

greg 47:33

Right, so thank you guys. Love you. Go Dogs.