Baggage Claim
Baggage Claim is a space for blended families, marriage, and friendship.
Here, we dive into real-life conversations about the ups and downs of relationships, from navigating second marriages to unpacking the baggage we all bring. Hosted by Greg and Jessica, who both have rich experiences with love, loss, and family, this community is about sharing stories, learning together, and growing stronger as couples and individuals. Grab a drink and join us as we unpack, laugh, and claim our baggage—one conversation at a time
Baggage Claim
What If Your Marriage Needs A New Dictionary
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
A simple question can either bring you closer or blow up your night. We’re digging into the difference between curiosity and surveillance, because “I’m just asking” can sound like care to one person and feel like an interrogation to the other. And if you’ve ever found yourself thinking, Why is my partner so defensive? or Why do I feel attacked when they’re being normal?, you’re not alone.
We talk through how trust, jealousy, and old wounds shape the way we hear each other. Sometimes the guardedness isn’t about the current relationship at all, it’s a trauma response from a past one where questions were used as ammunition. We share real stories from our own relationship, including the moments where we had to admit, out loud, what was really happening inside us and then choose transparency anyway. Michael and our guest Wes jump in with honest perspective on vulnerability, communication, and what it looks like to slow down and actually understand your spouse’s heart.
Then we zoom out to the patterns that keep couples stuck, like the pursuer-distancer cycle (demand-withdrawal) where one partner presses for connection and the other retreats to stay safe. We also add the blended family layer: co-parenting communication often has to be short, factual, and documented, and that style can accidentally bleed into marriage if you don’t compartmentalize. We end with a practical challenge: don’t try to change everything, start with one small 1% shift and build from there.
If this helped, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review. What’s a “curious” question that still hits you like surveillance?
Welcome To Baggage Claim
gregHey guys, what's up? I'm Greg. I hope you guys are ready to unpack and get into some good conversations today.
SPEAKER_04And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast, Baggage Claim. Thank you for joining us.
gregWhat's up, Baggage Claim? How's everybody doing out there today? Uh, thank you so much for taking time to listen to us. Baggage Claim is a place where we talk about blended families, marriages, relationships, everything in between, sometimes some crazy things. Uh, but we're hoping to create some conversation and maybe some community through all of this so that you don't feel like you're on your own, but we're all in this together. Because I can guarantee you the same things you're freaking out over, everybody else is freaking out over too. You're not the only one. Yeah, you're not in this boat by using it.
jessWhen we started this blended family journey, we felt like we were alone.
gregYes. And can I we are a real couple dealing with real stuff.
jessAnd we have no idea what we're doing. Yes.
gregAnd so we're trying to figure it out even now, this many years in.
jessBut we're having fun.
gregYeah, we're having a good time. That is true. And we listen to our own podcasts. I do, and I try to implement the things we talk about. So, because I think we're I think they're really cool ideas.
jessWe listen to our own selves. I won't, I will not listen to our own selves. I don't want to hear myself speak.
gregYeah, I don't think you've listened to one.
jessNo, I've heard I've I have no I have heard the intro, and I'm I'm just I'm like, nope, that's enough. That's enough.
MichaelCould you do that again for us? Nope.
jessThat was plenty. That's all I need to hear. That fragment of a sentence.
MichaelAnd can I say for that first intro recording we did, you know how much it took to get Jess to just simply say that?
jessA lot.
MichaelBut that was like 75 episodes ago. That was. That was February. Was that 2025? That's nuts. February of 25.
jessAnd I still won't listen.
gregShe's still scared to death. And she still uses the excuse, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, girl, we got minute and a half hours we have on the mic. You're a professional. Yeah. Pro professional.
SPEAKER_01You got it, you got it.
jessI've been teaching for 20 years, and I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing. So it's the same thing.
gregFrost yourself.
When Words Get Lost
gregSo we're talking about translation. Sometimes you lose it. Sometimes you lose things in translation.
MichaelI do.
gregI used to do trips a lot, and I remember this one time I was in India, and the guy asked me a bunch of questions, and I answered them what I thought was what I needed to say, and then he told me to take my shirt off. So I was like, I don't, I don't think we I don't think we reached the same conclusion. I would just say you that's a story I've never heard.
MichaelI was gonna say, I really need to hear this story.
gregThe security when you go through was a curtain. You go in and they pull the curtain and you step up on the box. Have you been to India? Bro, I came out and I was like, oh that guy five dollars.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Side word. Seeing a whole nother side of my body. Yeah, bro.
gregIt was uh I was like, I think we lost something in the translation there of uh what we were really after. Um so anyway, we're talking about in the sense of of marriage. We we had the podcast before this. If you haven't listened to that, you should check it out. It's called Lost in Translation. We basically said that all couples come from different climate environment environments. Like we're raised different ways in different cultures, we communicate in different ways, but sometimes we don't ever really share the same dictionary of you may say something and I'll say the same words, but they mean different meanings because of the way that we grew up. Yeah, that was the episode before us. So if you if you want to hear more about that, go check that episode out. We're gonna dig more into that idea of sometimes we just misunderstand each other because we're reading from different dictionaries when it comes to that.
Curiosity Versus Surveillance Defined
gregAnd I think this one is called uh Curiosity versus Surveillance. Yes. Um, which is a pretty interesting idea because we talked about curiosity, trying to find out things. Uh curiosity usually comes with a lot of questions, uh, a lot of those things that are happening. Uh but the surveillance is a completely different well.
MichaelIt's when you ask questions, like say if you were to ask me a bunch of questions, you could be coming from a point of curiosity, but I could be sitting here thinking, oh my goodness, what is he trying to figure out?
jessAnd you become more gone.
MichaelHe's trying to interrogate me.
jessIt's good.
MichaelBe surveilling me. Like that's where this concept comes from. Like, okay, how do I respond? Am I thinking you're coming from curiosity or am I thinking you're coming from surveillance? Correct.
gregAnd this is a it's it's a very interesting concept when you dig into, especially into a relationship.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
gregUm, because surveillance like is one of those weird kind of when I think of that, I'm like, cameras, I'm watching every move, when you show up, when do you leave?
jessUm it's a negative word.
gregYeah, for me it is. Yeah. But I I I I mean, when I think of our relationship, and and I'm not I'm not patting myself on the back or tooting my own horn, which I don't I don't know how I toot my own horn.
MichaelDepends on how many beans you have.
gregThat's a that's another story for another day. But anyway, um like I that just doesn't even cross my mind with us.
MichaelNo.
gregLike I never the only time I look at Life 360 is like, is she still at work or is she ever coming home? Uh so I'll pull up Life 360 to see if where you're at in the process. It's never a oh, what is she up to? What is she doing? Where is she going? There's been times when you've taken me because I do real estate.
SPEAKER_05And I have no idea where you are ever.
gregAnd sometimes I go to obscure places.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I'm like, why are you way over there?
gregYeah, you would take me like, why are you in Auburn? I'm going to look at a property. Like, I'm going to look at a house. Like, I'm not just joy riding in Auburn, Georgia.
jessAnd when I look at when I look at your life 360, it's literally out of curiosity because I never know what you're doing.
MichaelYes.
jessAnd that's, yeah, like the question is like, why are you there? Like, what is what are you doing? It's never of a accusatory point of view.
gregWhat is the difference in that idea, like, of curiosity versus surveillance? Is it trust or is it something more? What do you think?
jessLike we were saying, surveillance is kind of a negative connotation and that guardedness that comes with it. And sometimes that guardedness isn't rooted in your like in the previous episode we talked about your childhood experiences or the kind of house you grew up in, like environmental kind of things.
MichaelCorrect.
jessSometimes that's rooted in like your past relationship where curiosity was a weapon.
MichaelSure.
jessAnd like it you you weren't really just asking, I'm just asking, it was that was not the case.
MichaelThat previous just asking could have been gathering ammunition.
jessYes. Yes. And once you live through that, even like a genuine loving question from the partner that you're currently with can feel like an interrogation, not a not a avenue for connection.
MichaelHow do you think for example defense?
jessYeah.
MichaelOne thing, and and I don't know if it's just because of my age or my demographic, where I'm at, but like if if you're scrolling, you're scrolling, you know, whether it be TikTok, Instagram, like you always get these, like, hey, you know, working through relationships, how do you do this kind of stuff? And there's this one thing that always resurfaces. And honestly, I find it kind of sad, but the thing that I feel is so constantly thrown in guys' faces is don't be vulnerable. Don't be vulnerable because it's gonna eventually be thrown back in your face. So don't be vulnerable. No, and I say that, and I'm like, okay, the one person I should be vulnerable with more than anyone else should be my spouse. So I would hope, and I guess, in my opinion, in seeing this, is that just means there's a lack of trust.
Guest Wes Joins The Table
gregCan I can I can we tap the brakes for a second? I feel like we just we were getting on the on-ramp, and we just freaking hit the gas and went to the fast lane and hang on. Is that not what you do when you pull on at the end? We have a guy, a a guest who's still in our studio, Wesley. Yeah, we have a guest, that's right. Wes is with us.
MichaelI told you, bro. We really did. We skipped everything. We're sorry, we we hit the gas.
SPEAKER_01That kind of just threw us off the deep end. We did. Such good conversation. I'm we're good. We're good with it, we're nailing it.
gregSo we have we have Wes in the studio with us, a good friend of ours. We've been friends for years now.
jessOne of my favorite people in the whole world.
gregJust an awesome dude, owns a company, uh, brother Jack Woodworking. Awesome, really, really cool company.
jessIf you're on our Insta, you've seen the picture of our table, our beautiful table with our our logo burnt. You burned it, it's burnt into it. It is absolutely gorgeous.
MichaelHow many matches did that take?
SPEAKER_01Just a few.
MichaelDo you know how many wood burning kits he had to go through?
SPEAKER_01Doing that by a little soldering iron. Yeah, they don't know.
gregBut uh, but if you guys if you want some cool furniture, some cool things, Brother Jack woodworking. Yeah, go check it out. You will not be disappointed. So, in other words, I just tried to kick us over into the right-hand lane and be like, bro, can we turn the music down for a second?
MichaelIt just like let's let's get some things going.
gregYeah. Yeah. So um really deep subject though, but really, really cool idea to think about is that in in our relationships, because we always we always preach and preach and preach about communication, but sometimes talking, we think communication is just talking and saying words, but that's that's not even remotely one how we say the words, uh, our body language. There's so many things that go into communication. It's not just a simple, easy one, one tool. So we're digging into this idea of curiosity versus surveillance, which is it's gonna be fun for me because I am not a I am not a jealous guy at all. No, no. There's no jealous bone in me. Um I I I I just don't. Like uh I'm more jealous than you are. My theory is if Jess is gonna leave and she's gonna cheat, she's gonna do it no matter what I do.
jessBecause of your experience.
gregYes, because of my past experience. So I'm gonna love you and I think the best of you until you know, and I'm just I don't I don't believe that. I'm not going to until, you know, and if that happens, then we'll deal with that when it happens. But I'm not gonna live in the idea of oh my gosh, is she about to do something? She can she where's she at? What's she doing?
MichaelRight.
gregI'm like, bro, I'm just I'm not uh because we said when we got married, I'm like, I'm not living in that world. No, like if that's the case, we're not gonna get married, we'll just be friends and I'll go take you and grab a beer sometime. But we're not gonna be husband and wife. I was like, when I say yes, you have all of me and I trust you and I'm gonna be able to do I pass the test. So you probably look at it. I passed the test. Dang it. Man, I shouldn't have like no excited to pass that test or not. Anyway. I'm still here. That's true. So kind of, you're kinda you gotta have to now because if you want to see Lucy, you gotta kinda be here. Thomas has said he's gonna stay with me. He's going with it.
jessHe did say that. That whole thing. Thomas is my child. And when they were young, and we would just be just you know, be silly. And it's probably not a funny thing that we joked about ever. We were like, what if something happened? Me and Dad, and we were not together, and Thomas and Aaron, Thomas and Aaron, my biological children, both said, Oh, we're going with dad.
SPEAKER_01Surely helping. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
jessThat is so rude.
SPEAKER_01Well, one time it came over the room. You can even like I'm here.
gregWe talked about going to Pensacola, and I looked at Thomas and said, bro, are you gonna go to Pensacola? So he goes, Absolutely.
jessMove to there, not just go to not go.
gregWell, we're gonna move there. He goes, Yeah, I'll join the fire department there. I'm like, that's my man, yes.
SPEAKER_05Like, hello? I gave birth to you.
gregBut anyway, sorry.
MichaelI interrupted you in a really good montage. Well, bring back the question you said.
jessYou were talking about is it He doesn't remember the question he said.
MichaelIs it trust? If we're talking about curiosity versus surveillance, what brings up that difference?
gregYeah, I was like, is curiosity and surveillance is it built on like is that a lack of trust or is it a lack of something else that I'm
Trust Jealousy And Checking In
gregmissing? Or what is it?
MichaelHere's how my mind gets this, and this might be out there, okay, and you can tell me it's out there, that's okay. But my immediate response is it's not to be cliche. One, it's a lack of communication, which means there's a lack of understanding each other's heart, which is deeper than words, yeah, which therefore brings about a lack of trust.
jessOkay, let me throw in kind of a trendy phrase, I guess. Do you think that surveillance is kind of like a trauma response?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's 100%.
jessBut again, okay, okay, unpack that.
gregWhat do you mean? Like somebody unpacked that.
jessOkay, but there's well, like we're saying there's a difference between surveillance and curiosity. Curiosity, I want to know. Your famous phrase, help me understand. You're genuinely curious and wanting to gather information out of curiosity for understanding. Surveillance is control, control and gathering information for an accusatory standpoint. It takes a different point of view.
MichaelGotcha. Okay. Well, and again, I think uh it comes back to communication and understanding the heart because one, if it simply is just control, that's unhealthy. But secondly, it could be maybe in a past experience, someone was cheating consistently.
jessThis is where I was about to say.
MichaelLet's pretend like it could be a protective, hey, you are out until eight o'clock. You're usually off at five. I need to know what I need to find. I I kind of want to make sure you're not cheating. Yeah. Which don't be wrong, it has its own issues in itself, but there's a different heart behind that.
jessLet's pretend, like, Greg, that you did not take your healing time and recovery from your past experience. And rather than help me understand and you were asking questions, you and were you you were I was under surveillance and you watched my every move and you didn't trust anything.
gregI will say this when we first met, I thought you were incredibly attractive, so that was that really helped me.
jessUm it's not what we're talking about. No, no, no, no, no. I know it's not what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yes, here comes the butt.
gregHowever, but I was very guarded in the beginning of our relationship because I thought you you're you you had this and you still have it. Aaron has this too. That you you two ladies have this, which is a mini me. Is a really cool gift. You have this ability to just attract like you just have this very welcoming spirit about you. Like you're very that's true. It's very easy to just hang out with you and talk with you. And so the first time we met at Waffle House, I know, big spender, thank you very much.
jessUm also that's all I all the time I would give you. I will have a cup of coffee with you. Oh, excuse me.
gregI'll give you a cup of coffee. You gave me whatever I wanted.
jessNo, sir. Absolutely not. Okay, no, sir.
gregMaybe not. But anyway, um it was that was the that was the initial, because you were just but we hit it off, sitting in that Waffle House booth. And I was like, even hitting it off, there was still part of me that was like, I was still guarded a little bit to go, uh Do you think? I really, yeah, you you go on this, you tell people I went on this. I mean, what do you think I hate women's?
jessOn our first real date, not the Waffle House date. On our first real date, he gave me this whole speech of why he hates women and why he's never gonna get in a relationship.
SPEAKER_01They're not nice. It wasn't at Waffle House.
jessWe went to first of all, it was not Waffle House, our first real date. We went indoor rock climbing.
gregYeah, we went to Stone Summit. No, we went to Stone Summit and went climbing. And then we went to uh Which is incredible. Yeah, it's a great, great climbing junk. And then there's a little tavern place right there on uh right by the guest south place. I know it. So we hung out there, and I may, I may, I may have. I don't remember to say.
jessIt was not I may have.
gregBut I will say this there were there were some walls up because it was a protected.
jessI vividly I vividly remember asking, then why am I here?
SPEAKER_01Have you ever been rocking had you had you ever gone rock climbing before? No. That was the brand new. Yes. Here we go. Yeah, I'm gonna go.
gregBut dude, I'm telling you, I didn't dinner.
jessI was like, why are you?
gregLike I will say this it was I packed fruit. He didn't. I practice snacks.
jessHe was ready.
gregYeah, oh yeah. I broke out the cooler, bottles of water, bottles of water, fruit, no perceptible, no perception, no alcohol. Because she wasn't a drinker.
jessI never drank until after we got married. Oh, he knew. Okay. He knew.
gregYeah. That was one of yeah, that was some of our initial questions. It's like, are you okay if I drink? And she goes, I don't drink, but you can drink. And I was like, okay, cool.
jessAs long as you're not ridiculous.
gregBut all that to say, not to get off on that tangent. Um, I was, I could see that was a trauma response for me. But it didn't take me long to say, if I want to be in this, I gotta fully be in this. Yeah. And I'm not going to go halfway in and go, always, I want to look at your phone, I want to know where you're at. It was a if I'm gonna be in this, I'm gonna be in this. And be like, I I can't. So it's hard for me because I would be curious. My question was for you guys when does when is it okay to to have those walls up in a relationship? Is it in the beginning, or what if you're five, six years in and you're still living in that? Is that acceptable? Is that okay, or is that a red flag, or is that uh I don't know, I'm curious.
MichaelReally? In my opinion, I think that's unhealthy. Um and I say that for me, because I mean I'm here on what three three years after divorce, and I'm still working on trusting. Yeah, like I am, and I'm gonna be honest, and I'm in that same boat as you, and I'm saying, like, okay, if I want to be in a serious, healthy relationship, I'm gonna have to deal with that. I'm gonna have to deal with that. How well and I don't know what that looks like, I really don't, because it's just gonna have to be a learning as I go kind of situation. But at the same time, I don't think it's wrong to have protective boundaries in your life. We build those defenses because of things that have hurt us in the past. Right. Yeah, but sometimes those things hold you back. They absolutely do.
jessAlso, when you know that that's your partner's baggage, you can't just be like, oh, well, that's just what you've been through and that's not me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
jessYou can't dismiss it. You have to dismiss it.
SPEAKER_01I know we have bagged for what it is, and I could recognize it and call it out and literally understand it.
Trauma Responses In Real Time
jessI don't understand it, but I'm gonna I'm gonna Yeah, I didn't understand where Greg was coming from because I had never been through that.
gregThis is my minute of vulnerability. I'm being vulnerable here. Okay, so I have my umbrella protecting.
jessDo it, you gotta I don't know what you're gonna say.
gregAs soon as I start to share this, you're going to we were still dating. Uh, you and went to Florida, um, and that was just weird because I am not like this at all.
MichaelI am not like this at all. Yeah, she is exactly those.
gregShe sends me these pictures of there on this boat. Jess was, I mean a fox. Yeah.
jessI was I was.
SPEAKER_01She was she is a fox. Stop with that attitude. Oh my god.
gregSee that hip flopping around. God wish we had a video of that. But it's her in this There's a pirate. Ragtag.
SPEAKER_01That doesn't help.
gregYeah, they look like they look like the uh the like C class version of that.
jessLet me reframe this picture. Me, my two little children, my previous mother-in-law, and her sister. I'm still friends with her. Okay, good. I mean, she was literally just here two nights ago for something. She maybe begins on the biggest.
SPEAKER_05We were on a voyage. No. You remember when he loved the book? It was 150 years old. No, it was an old man. No, he was not?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, it's not.
gregIt was very unbuttoned. Very unbuttoned. There's a lot of testicles going on. A lot of testicles going on.
MichaelGreg needs to finish his story. I need to hear the rest of the story to go to Greg.
gregI was like, look, we went on a pocket board. I bet you are.
SPEAKER_01We call dolphins. It was so cool. Yeah, him where North is. Yeah.
gregAnd that was.
jessBut okay, but the picture that he had a fit about is that raggedy old man pirate was kissing me on the cheek in one of the pictures.
gregThat's what got him. Yeah, he put his lips on her.
SPEAKER_01Because it's not him. Yeah. And so for me, scally scally. Thank you, Wes.
gregSo that was that was that's me. That's that's me being vulnerable in the beginning. Like, because that had some issues that I was still with. So how did you how did you adjust? That how did you talk through that?
jessHe said he had a problem with it.
gregI just straight up said, What the is going on here? I didn't really notice that.
jessI was like, Meanwhile, Thomas and Eric Grace are in my lap.
gregYou just see that you couldn't see it. Yeah, then it popped out of the picture.
jessAnd my OG mother and mom was beside me. I'm like, okay.
gregYeah, it's like now that's her Instagram story. And like, look, this is my profile picture. I didn't even have Instagram at that point. I'm making out with a pocket.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Jack Sparrow. No.
SPEAKER_05Jack Sparrow's great-grandfather.
SPEAKER_01I bet he was Johnny Depp's grandfather might have been.
jessI have to find that book.
gregI say that because all of my all of the things that I had experienced come right to the surface, just like that. And immediately I find myself and I'm like, what is Why? What? Yeah, why? This is crazy. If I give it thought and I and I and I track that down, and over time I was like, okay, that was silly.
jessBut I will say I didn't dismiss your feelings at that point. I was like, okay, that's silly. And I did tell you that was silly. But the more we talked about it, the more I was like, okay, well, I can't really just dismiss this because this is actually baggage that he's bringing. He I didn't at that point I didn't use the word baggage, but like this is an experience that's very real to him. And I did apologize to you. I mean, we weren't actually well, maybe we were actually a thing.
gregYeah, we were dating.
jessBut I did apologize to you, and I was.
gregI was homeworking trying to make money, and you were all making out with pirates.
jessI didn't need your money at that point. First of all, I was a little bit significant. I'm a pink man, I told him. I said, Don't you come in here and mess this up. I have a pink of one right here. I'm on the house, I have a home car.
SPEAKER_01Make what I want him.
jessI don't need you, but I I did. This whole trip is free because it doesn't matter. You didn't contribute one cent to that situation, but I did not. I didn't dismiss you. I didn't understand it at first. I really truly did not understand it at first.
gregBut I was like, okay, well, it's the same thing though, too, because I didn't understand when you would text me or call me and I would not like call you back within two minutes or two seconds.
jessTwo seconds. I needed two seconds. You were you went off the handle of how I was straight to something's happened, something's wrong. Trauma response.
gregYes. I mean baggage. Those things are real. So when we talk about curiosity versus surveillance, know the response that you're getting could it could be trauma. But here's the thing. If you've been together for years and years and years and you're still getting a trauma response, that ought to be a sign that you need to sit down and work through some issues. Yeah. Like there needs to be because that happened to us in the first three months, four months. Not happened last year.
jessWhen you also, when you called me and you were asking all these questions, I was like, okay, are you breaking up with me? You remember that conversation?
gregI did I I vaguely remember saying, hey, it's not you, it's me. Yes. And you said Did you really, Greg? Yes, he did. I did say that. Yes, he did. Well, I will tell you this though. I was a I I was a hundred percent honest. Like, I you're gonna get You were way too honest. I was like, you're getting 100% honesty of me. Um and it wasn't great all the time. I would say this 100% honesty is not great.
jessI deserve a high five.
gregUm so I I tried to work through that best, and we just we just talked about it.
jessWe did.
gregWe literally talked about it. I mean, that's the the conversation we're at Black Show Place, and we're sitting at church, and she goes, So what are you thinking? Like, where are you at?
jessYeah. And I thought she meant me and you as a relationship. I meant currently in this church service.
gregThat's a good lost translation of communication there.
jessYeah.
gregWhat did I say?
jessI think about 65%. Yeah, because I got about 65%. That's what I got today.
gregI think I got about 65% right now. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01She's 19th grade in your school right now.
gregShe looked at me with the look and she's looking at me down. It was just like 65%? She goes, I was talking about church. And I was like, Oh, I'm sorry.
jessI didn't mean that. God, I'm so surprised I stayed with you.
MichaelOh my goodness. Well, we talk about all of this, and it's, and I don't remember where this quote comes from, but it rings so true with everything that we're saying. It's saying it's not about the other person, it's about your body bracing like it used to have to. Meaning, because of your past experiences, you do put up boundaries, you do put up walls, protections that you put in place to save yourself. Yeah. And sometimes that also becomes habit because you have to do it for so long, or because of how much trauma and how much pain you went through. And sometimes it's hard to stop that right away.
gregHere's the thing. We talked about here's an unpack. This is really kind of based off, and I think it leads right into what you said. It's like name the reaction in the moment. Don't don't shut it down or lash out or act like it didn't happen, or or frame it to be something else.
jessYes. It's like, okay, let's name it, let's address it.
gregLet's just talk through this right now. Transparency. Um, yeah, and transparency sometimes it's not pretty. Uh sometimes it's not pretty. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not. And it's really, really hard.
jessI know when we were just playing about or I mean, not playing, it really did happen, but the conversation that we had early on when you were like, it's not you, it's me. It really was kind of like a check the temperature of where we're at. Because I remember what had happened right before that. Do you remember what happened right before that? What brought you to that
Grief Triggers And Old Shirts
jessconversation? It was a shirt that I wore. Do you want to talk about it?
SPEAKER_01I want to know about the shirt. I I definitely it wasn't just a shirt.
gregThere were some other things.
jessIt was not just a shirt. But um at that point, TJ passed away two years before that. And I was still working at World Language Academy, and the only World Language Academy shirt he had was this, I mean, it was actually kind of cool baseball type shirt.
MichaelOkay.
jessAnd I'd held on to it because I thought it was cool, maybe Thomas might want it or whatever. But I wore it one day. And I posted a picture of myself, and I don't remember exactly what I said, but I was proud of myself, and I'd said something kind of like that. And it was not a like, I'm not over him, but it was more like a hurdle for myself.
gregBut here's my here's my thing. I've been I've been in consulting and coaching for 15 years. It's not, it's it's what you don't say that's important to me, not what you say. So I'm listening for what you don't say than more than what you say. And when she I saw that post, I'm like I hear what she's saying, but what's she not saying?
SPEAKER_01Red flag.
gregYeah. And for me, it was like, I don't know that she's ready for this. I don't know that I'm ready to be in this with her if she's not ready for this. And that was my biggest because you you had these and this was a huge thing for us, man. This was this is big for me to to to realize if I'm gonna say yes to this, this is not about me at all, period. Like I can't have I can't be selfish in this at all because you had these um red balloon paintings that you had everywhere with one red balloon that were not everywhere, it was in both kids' rooms.
jessThere was two.
gregNo, there was there was more than two. Um I'm telling you. I'm telling you, I know. Uh and so that was a big thing, like when he passed y'all released the red balloons, and then you guys had shirts uh around that.
jessThose shirts were not my idea.
gregIt doesn't matter. You had the shirts, and so there's all this stuff, and so when I saw that, that's when I really said to her, I was like, I don't, this is not, it's not about you. Like, I'm trying to work to some stuff. Am I okay? Am I at a point where I'm okay to say, like, literally, I have to honor and and and and I look at it now and I'm just like, good gosh. But I knew I had to honor TJ to love Thomas and love Aaron the way that they need to be loved and to accept Jess. And so I was like, I don't know that I am I ready to do that. And so that's why I was like, it's not you, it could it's 100% could be me. I'm not ready for that. Like to be able to say, I'm gonna let go of those things and love those kids because they don't have a dad. And can I be that dad for them because they don't have that? But I gotta be able to honor him in the process and let go of myself.
jessAnd so that was a And you've done it beautifully.
gregThat was a big deal, and that's we did have a it's not you, it's a hundred percent me conversation. Sure. And it was weird. And she goes, Are you breaking up with me? And I was like, What? No, no, I'm not breaking up with you. I'm just trying to say, I'm I'm trying to figure this out. Like, I don't know what I'm doing here. Like this is all brand new to us. Yeah, uh, and so I was just trying to figure it out because I was just curious, I was literally just I was I was very curious about that, but I knew I loved you and I wanted to be figure out if I could manage this with Callie and Cody and with Thomas and Airing and uh navigate that whole situation.
jessSo it's that was a big check the temperature conversation. Yes, yes, it really was.
gregBut we in the moment, we we literally did, we named here's what we're thinking, here's how we're feeling, here's where we're at. We're not gonna run from this, we're not gonna act like this isn't here. And how how awkward was that?
jessOh, incredibly gosh, incredibly that was at the like in the top five awkward conversations we've ever had, ever. Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
gregAnd when I say awkward, it's it's like it was you know, we always say we would say we're gonna embrace the suck, and this is gonna be weird if you make it weird. Yeah, this could be really, really weird.
jessAnd that was just weird.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna be weird.
jessWe I think we both cried. Like I mean, it was just weird.
gregGood, but and now I look back at that and I'm thinking how how childish is it that I thought that way and acted that way.
jessAlso, what a huge stepping stone that was in our relationship.
gregYeah, yeah. Huge. Yeah, I agree. All right, point number two.
Pursuer Distancer Demand Withdrawal Trap
gregSo give it to us, Jess. Do you have a point two?
jessLet me put my glasses on.
gregSo Oh god, I can't say this.
jessOh, this was tricky.
MichaelYou tried saying it so many times.
jessSo many times. So when we were talking about in the previous episode, um, kind of like how you grew up and the household you came from, um, and just the way you've developed your style of communication. There is a pursuer, typically, and a distancer.
gregSo someone who's chasing someone who's running.
jessYes, and it's a trap.
gregMost of the time, yeah.
jessIt's a trap. And we also talked about this reel that we saw on Instagram. What was that guy's name?
gregJustin Owen.
jessJustin Owen or just a little bit.
gregWait, dude, go go follow him. So it is Owens, right? I'm pretty sure it's Owen or Owens. You drop some truth. He's really good.
jessOne really, really good point he made was that one partner is pressing for connection, but the other partner is pulling back. And that's a it's it's a relationship pattern that researchers call demand and withdrawal. Demand withdrawal. One partner pushes for discussion for change, or excuse me, one partner pushes for discussion or change, the other disengages or shuts down. And research consistently links this pattern to lower relationship satisfaction, and it's one of the most studies predictors for conflict dissatisfaction in couples research.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Wow.
jessAnd the the trap is self-reinforcing, and you don't know it. The the more one partner pursues, the more the other retreats. And the more the other retreats, the more the other one pursues. And it just keeps going and going, going. But that gap keeps getting bigger because nobody's responding to what the other one needs. And they're doing exactly both people doing exactly what keeps them safe from growing up or their previous experiences. And neither one has set out to hurt each other, but without naming that pattern, it runs on autopilot indefinitely.
gregSo it's like a fight you're never gonna win.
jessYes.
gregYou're just doing it over and over.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Combating with the person you love most.
gregYou know what's crazy? Our emotions, our lives are in cycles. Even our trauma responses, even these things are in cycles. Like our bad habits, our good habits, they all go in cycles. And if you watch them, it's just it's so crazy as humans how we do that.
jessYeah.
gregEspecially in our relationships.
jessYeah, and we do that and how we navigate you know, big issues or conversations or fusses or whatever, intense fellowships, whatever you want to call it.
MichaelSo in a relationship, and I'm gonna be honest, like that one kind of really hits home with me. Because that's I feel like that's exactly the trap I was caught in in my marriage as we were trying to work through it. But like, how do you how do you break that cycle?
jessI don't know, how do you, because we're still you are the pursuer and I'm the distancer.
SPEAKER_01Out love? I don't know.
MichaelWhat is the I mean I'll say I tried that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
gregI tried that very hard. I will say this, and and I'll say this in every every time I talk to um couples who are struggling, and it's it breaks my heart when I see couples that can't figure it out because I'm like, I I mean I I get it in a sense, but it's also too like, bro, the road ahead is not easy. The road you're in is hard, but the road ahead of you is so much harder. Yeah. But you can't tell someone that because they don't know that. Yeah, you can't tell someone how hard it is. You tried telling me. Yeah, some of the yeah, I did. Many times. Yes. But at the same time, it's like it takes two people. It does. Um, and I think for me, that was probably the hardest. Um that was probably the hardest concept for me to get my head around and my my heart around is that I couldn't, it didn't make sense to me because I'm like, I want this to work, I'll do whatever I have to do to make this work. Yes, in my previous, I'll do whatever I have to do to make this work. And they were like, no. And it did that just I didn't understand that. Yeah, and so for me, that was like, what? Uh that that's crazy. Um, I'm a pursuer because I'm a I'm an action.
jessAnd you're a fixer.
gregYes. I'm like, I mean, I'm like, we're gonna talk about it, but we're not gonna talk about it long because I'm ready to stop talking and let's get to work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's go do something.
gregYes, you know, and so with Jess, with us, I'm like, okay, let's go do this. And so it's been but at the same time, I have to know that she's if she if I know she's in this with me, I'm okay with slowing the process down and going, I can sit. Yep, I'm good to sit. Wait.
jessShe doesn't need a minute.
gregI'm good to I'm good to hang out. I just need to know you're in it with me.
jessRight. Yeah.
gregIf you say, I'm with you, let's figure this out, done. We'll we'll we'll burn the place down if we have to to figure it out. But if not, then there's no need for us to keep doing this.
jessBut the difference is though, we've learned and taken the time, even before this podcast, this is something we learned about each other just along the way. We've learned to be able to say it out loud. And sometimes I still struggle with being like, I need you to just give me some time to process this. Sometimes I have a I have a hard time vocalizing, like when I feel like you're asking question after question after question, and you don't always do that, but that's what it feels like to me. I need to be able to say out loud, okay, I hear you, but you're just I need a minute, or I need a day. Give me 24 hours to process this, and then we'll come back and talk about it again. So kind of reframing it like that helps to I mean the pattern's gonna be there, but it if you just talk about it and say, like, I just I need a minute.
gregBut I think both of you have to take small steps to change to to break that cycle, to change it. Yeah. Because if you don't, you're gonna keep in the same cycle.
jessAnd the key is to realize you're not trying to win the argument. I think that's a big stumbling block.
gregYeah, if you're trying to win, you've already lost. I would just tell you that. Like if you go into something and be like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna win this, you've already lost it. Like you're not going anywhere.
jessI can confidently say it takes a lot of humility.
gregYes, you've got to set yourself down.
jessBut I can confidently say we've never tried to be the one that wins the argument. Like we want to be able to understand where each other's coming from and to be able to move forward together. Now, does someone lose? Yeah, but I don't know if anybody loses.
gregI think somebody I for me, sometimes we've argued and well not argued, but we've had these frustrations, and I've walked away and I'm like, what in the hell am I mad at?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
gregI can't even name what I'm mad at. Or I can't even say it out loud. So what am I what am I doing?
jessYeah, or we've both come away from it being like, okay, we actually both want the same thing.
gregBut we just when we were going away to start this podcast, oh my gosh.
jessBaggage claim, we got into an argument in the bathroom two days.
gregAnd you said, I'm not going. I was like, I don't care if you like me or not. Go get in the car and we're going to do this.
jessAnd then we fussed the whole thing. Like we did, man. It was for probably three quarters of the time that we were away together. I was like, we're not doing this.
gregWe're not not gonna do this.
jessI remember going on the porch and just sitting down, and you came out. Like, what are you doing? I'm like, why are we here? It was not cute.
gregIt was, yeah, that was just to say that's where baggage sleep started. So that's that's that's the weekend that it kicked off. Um now we're here. Thank you. And here we are. Woo! Thank you, Jen and Scott.
jessYeah, and I know we started out this this kind of point talking about the pursuer and the distancer trap. But here, let's add another complicated layer.
gregOkay, yes, please.
Co-Parenting Style Bleeding Into Marriage
jessWhat if you're a blended family? Let's throw that into the mix with co-parenting and all those other things.
SPEAKER_01A whole other mix of emotions. It's wild.
jessIt's wild. It is wild.
gregI man, I don't know, I don't have an answer for that.
jessWell, so co-parenting communication with an ex it requires a more guarded and almost like documentation style approach.
MichaelGod, that sucks.
jessIt has to be short and factual and unemotional and literally in writing, and sometimes it's legal. And I mean, that's great, but that same guarded style can bleed into how you you communicate with a person that is your current spouse.
gregWell, the problem with that is is like when I communicate that way, you sometimes feel like you're like, Well, why not just I remember we having these kinds, just stand up for yourself, and I'm like, but I am. And you're like, no, no, no, you need to say this and do this and do this, and I was like, No, I don't. Um, and so that created tension between us and that blended family, because you're like, you need to do this, and I was like, I don't need to do that. No, I do not. And you're like, Yeah, you do. Um, but that created tension through all of that, and we're just like, no, no, no, that's not, it's not the but it does affect the way that you communicate and work together in so many ways.
jessWell, thank thank God you you didn't use that same communication style with me because sometimes people will do that. It becomes like a this is how I'm communicating, it's very factual, here's what we're doing, it's a you know, it's a a list or this or that. And that can be cold.
MichaelYeah.
jessIt can be cold. And the new partner can end up feeling like you're on the receiving end of communication rather than like in it together.
gregGotcha. So what's it w how can we unpack that? What can we do? Identify one co-parenting communication habit showing up in the uh in the marriage?
jessWell, you gotta be protective of how you co-parent with communication. That communication habit or the communication style. You gotta be able to car compartmentalize. Like we're gonna communicate one way with the ex or the co-parent and then communicate a different way with your current spouse.
gregAnd that's different for everybody. Some some people process their emotions and you can have good conversations and co parent, and you can be in the same house, you can be in the same room, you can have good conversations, and then some you cannot at all. Like it just doesn't work.
jessYeah.
gregSo um you just have to figure out what that looks like, abide by those rules and just deal with them.
jessYeah, well, and it all boils down to Being able to figure out what your communication style is.
gregYeah.
unknownPeriod.
MichaelAgain, going back to the language.
jessPeriod.
MichaelAnd how you were raised, past relationships. Dictionary. What is yeah, dictionary? What is your dictionary?
Learn Each Other’s Language
gregI want to read this quote that uh Justin said that I thought was man, he and this reel is just like, whoa. He kind of hit us and we just all listened to it. It says you're both fluent in a language, the other one was never taught. That's not incompatibility. Uh that's an invitation to learn. Wow. That's that's a big statement. So think about it in those terms when you feel frustrated and you feel like you're not being understood to say, okay, time to learn. Yeah, let's learn. Let's learn each other's language. Let's learn what you're saying.
jessAnd be willing to learn.
MichaelPersonal growth. Yes. That takes sacrifice. That's so hard. That takes responsibility. But again, going back to things we've said over and over and over again on this podcast, if it's worth having, it's gonna be hard to get.
gregHe goes, everything worthwhile is uphill. Yeah. It's uphill.
jessSo this episode and the episode previous, there's been a lot.
gregYeah, we talk, we really dug into some communication stuff deep into it. So I hope, I hope you listen to both of these and just try to take a nugget. Don't, don't. Here's the thing I have with this, man. We hear someone say something, we're like, oh, I need to change the all this, all these things. I'm like, no, no, no, start with one. Just do one thing different. Just start one little thing and try to change that and see what happens.
MichaelWhat's the uh 1% rule? If you change 1% a day, you end up it's like 300 times growth in one year. Yeah, atomic habits.
gregIt talks about the 1% rule and atomic habits. Great book to read. Um, everybody should read that and just it's a it's a great one. Uh but yeah, just just try to be a little bit better at it. I'm not saying change everything, just be a little better.
SPEAKER_01So Rebel into a wave, man. Yeah, that's it.
gregAnything to add? No one? No, no last walkout knowledge?
SPEAKER_01It's just hard. It's just hard to hard.
MichaelKeep your eye on what the goal is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
MichaelKeep your eye on what the goal is. If when if you're if you're married and you truly believe in till death do us part, sickness or in health, richer or poor, all of that, and you want to grow old with someone, keep the goal in mind. Because the reality is, with or without that person, you're gonna walk a hard road. Life is not easy. I love the John Wayne quote. Life's tough and it's tougher when you're stupid. Right? But life is tough, it's gonna be hard with or without that person. Yep. Very true. So keep the goal in mind and fight the good fight.
gregMan. Well said, sir. I'm not adding anything to that. Nope. Other than thank you for
Final Takeaways And Goodbye
greglistening. Thank you for hanging out with us. Thank you for being a part of Baggage Claim. As we grow and expand and everything else, please like, subscribe, share, do all the fun things you do. If you're feeling crazy and that drink just hit you in the right spot, go leave a comment. Do it. Leave a comment. Go leave a comment. Just do it. Talk to us. You can send a text. You can get on our social medias. Just do it. What was that, Wes?
SPEAKER_01Just do it.
gregThere you go.
SPEAKER_01Do it. Ask for a question. Yeah. Do a thing that scares you. Try it. See what happens.
gregThat's it. That's it. Beautiful. We can't. I can't say it any better. And thanks for joining. Go to Oaks. Go to Oaks.
